Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 195

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Is it not remarkable we have documents of this quality for
 2everything below Himmler, but not a single page above
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. How often do you say that Hitler and Himmler met in
 5the course of a week?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It varied through the year, depending on whether he was in
 7or out of favour.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When they were on good terms?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I would suggest two or three times a week.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You were in the army, I think?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Navy?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Air force?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. So you have not been in service? Have you ever
17worked in a company?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know anything about how companies work? For
20example, do you know anything about the day-to-day
21relationship between a managing director and a chief
23 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You live in a little world of your own, do you,
25Mr Irving? You know nothing about the means by which
26humans convey information to each other in matters of

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 1importance on a day to day----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, it was not the question you asked. You asked
 3specifically whether I had been in companies, army, navy
 4or air force and I said no.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you not think it more than likely, leave aside report
 6number 51 which speaks for itself, that on a day-to-day
 7basis Himmler and Hitler would have talked about all the
 8things that concerned him. Obviously Hitler, as leader of
 9his country, would be chiefly concerned with the progress
10of the war, would he not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I think there is written evidence
12that, whenever people went to Hitler with stories of the
13atrocities they had heard about, Himmler's immediate
14response was always as relayed back to the person
15concerned, usually through Lammas, "Do not bother the
16Fuhrer with this, he will only say this is all Himmler's
17business and I do not want to hear about it".
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then why did Himmler bother having the Korheir report
19edited in March 1943 to take out the word
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Very interesting, is it not, that it was camouflaged
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Answer my question, please. If it is right that Hitler was
24not interested in that kind of thing and would just have
25swept it aside and said oh, that is all Himmler's
26business, silly old fool, he is passionate about this

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 1Jewish question, it would not mattered, would it?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I think the Korheir report really needs a discussion of
 3its own without being dealt with in this rather flippant
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please, Mr Irving, could I have an answer to my question?
 6Why do you think that Himmler had that report sanitized,
 7as I put it?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well I am not inside Himmler's head but, if the original
 9report said expressus verbus, or as plain as a pike staff,
10that a million Jews had been killed or sonderbehandlung
11zugefuhrt, but if Himmler says I want a shorter version
12without that in so that I can show it to the Fuhrer,
13I think that that very much supports what I have said
14rather than what you are maintaining.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What it means, Mr Irving, is this, is it not, that if the
16word sonderbehandlung had been left in, Hitler would have
17known exactly what it meant?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, in the way that it was written, if you remember, if
191,200,000 people are subjected to special treatment at a
20camp, that does not mean they are having their hair cut.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It did not say at a camp. It said in the Warthegau and I
22think in the General Government.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg to differ. I know that document fairly clearly.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maybe we will go back to later on. I do not have a copy
25of that.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I really think that document, if we are going to deal with

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 1it, should be dealt with extensively rather than here in
 2this rather cursory manner.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am taking what I know of it simply from your
 4own book.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you have quoted it wrongly there from memory, and
 6I know the exact text.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am afraid, Mr Irving, that you are going to have to look
 8at this, because this is important. This is one of the
 9two most important aspects of the case.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you will always find I am willing to eat
11humble pie if I have made a mistake. There is never any
12question about that.
13 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, this is D3(i), tab 30. Mr Irving, do you
14have there a paper by you with the suppressed Eichmann and
15Goebbels papers?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is presented by you at the 11th IHR conference in
18October 1992?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you write these things before you present them?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you spoke, as it were, off the top of your head.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am well known for that.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I can believe that.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Some people say it is waffling but other people say it is

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see, Mr Irving, that the questions begin at page 174.
 2Is this yet again one of those papers that you had
 3checked, or you checked or approved before publication in
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I would probably have edited it for split infinitives and
 6the like.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, quite. Now turn to page 173. Remember this is in
 8October 1992. This is a bit I read to you earlier but it
 9is well we see it in context, as part of what shall I say,
10not a rehearsed but as part of a serious paper presented
11to something which calls itself the Institute for
12Historical Review. You see the passage that I read to you
13earlier halfway down the page, bang in the middle of the
14left-hand column on page 173. I do not know why Eichmann
15recounted that kind of detail in his memoirs?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we have what the detail was?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Absolutely not.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     May I read if out after you have dealt with it?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes you can, but then I will ask you why you
20want it read out. Let's get on with Mr Rampton's
22 MR RAMPTON:     So shall I. Go down to the end of that paragraph
23in the middle of the page on page 173. You say: "So
24I accept this kind of experiment, we are talking about a
25gassing experiment in a bus witnessed by Eichmann, what
26you call a gassing experiment, so I accept that this kind

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