Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 195

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is probably not Dr Turner's reference, is it?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me. There is a security classification on it.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Next to the handwritten 2, where it says 1, 2, 3.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, that says Chief Hatkentness (?)
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, I thought it might be chef -- right, carry on.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I thought it was too, until I took advice. So this is a
 8letter without a security classification put on it by the
 9sender and certainly no clear security classification put
10on it by Berlin at the other end?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Unless A R was a special, ultra secret classification.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Plausible, but speculative.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, except that the A R on the rubber stamp is in the
14place where the security classification goes.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Often you get the rubber stamp Geheimer Reisache, do you
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. As I say, it is in the place on the rubber stamp
18where the security classification goes. I think we have
19made a discovery of that.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Conceivably. Over the page, only this, there is a big
21paragraph. It fills most of the page and about halfway
22down the paragraph there are some German starting Schon
23von... Would you read it to yourself as far down as you
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Already months ago I have had every Jew I could get my
26hands on shot in this country, and I have had all the

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 1Jewish women and children concentrated in a camp and at
 2the same time, with the help of the Security Service
 3I, have managed to procure a "delousing truck" which in 14
 4days to four weeks will have managed to clean out the
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well now, that is obviously code?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For some idiotic reason, he has put it in inverted commas,
 9which rather gives the game away, does it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     It does, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is code for gassing truck, is it not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which camp is being referred to?
14 MR RAMPTON:     Semlernin outside Belgrade. So the same business
15is going on there as elsewhere. I do not know how many
16they managed to -- well, you can see how many they managed
17to polish off if you look at 5212 of Professor Browning's
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I stay with this document for a moment, Mr Rampton?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     And say, if I was cantankerous, there are any number of
22reasons why I could challenge this document, but I do not.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then you do not need to spend time on it.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     For example, it is on non-standard German size paper. It
25does not use the S runes. It has wierd typed toward in SS
26runes and so on. But I do not. I fully accept that it is

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 1genuine and I think it important to make that distinction.
 2This is quite clearly a very sinister document.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Do you now accept therefore that statements that
 4you have made to the effect that oh, yes they used gas
 5trucks on a very limited scale for experiments were just
 6plain wrong?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And do you also accept, which is the important question,
 9that, before making a statement of that kind about such an
10important matter, it matters not that these people were
11Jews, they were human beings, do you not think, before
12making such statements, it behoved you to do a little bit
13of research in accessible files?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I was being asked this question at a press
15conference, if you remember. I did not volunteer the
16information. Somebody asked me did I accept that there
17had been such use of gas trucks. My information at that
18time was based on what I knew from Adolf Eichmann's papers
19that he himself had taken part in those experimental runs.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am just pausing only, Mr Irving, because I want to find
21what you said about it in the pleadings.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is in answer to a question, if I am right.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the pleadings I think it is a limited
24experimental basis, is it not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I think this really falls into two or three parts.
26I quite clearly said yes, there were gassings in gas

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 1trucks, but at that time the state of my knowledge was
 2that it had not been on anything like this scale.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     This was probably some time served in 1996 or 1997
 4I should think. Yes, it is in the reply, my Lord. It is
 5on page 3 of the reply. It was served in March 1997. One
 6part of it says this: "It is denied that the plaintiff has
 7denied the Holocaust. It is denied that the plaintiff has
 8denied that gas chambers were used by the Nazis as the
 9principal means of carrying out that extermination".
10I think those two sentences are going to be contradictory
11with what next follows. "They may have used them on
12occasion on an experimental scale which frankly is not
13denied". That is in March 1997. This is a considered
14statement by you for the purpose of these proceedings?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And I have just shown you what is not a particularly
17secret document in the historical sense.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Which shows that that element of my statement was wrong,
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you made the same statement to the public at large?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     In response to a question on the basis of my information
22at that time.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think I am going to be enabled to contradict that, too,
24in a moment.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it also has to be said that these gas trucks of
26course did not carry on month after month after month

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 1after month after month. According to the information in
 2this document and others, it just operated for a few
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me, Mr Irving, we got to 97,000 in a month.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, which certainly seems an incredible figure, when you
 6have only three trucks, they can only take 20 at a time
 7and they have to drive 20 miles into the country side.
 8But I do not have the information on which to challenge
 9the figure, apart from the inherent improbability of that
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a massive figure.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     You also have to remember that they are bragging and
13boasting about what they have achieved.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, of course. There is always that danger, that they
15are seeking to please somebody. If that were so,
16Mr Irving, I think that letter about the 97,000 sent to
17Himmler, I cannot remember?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They must have believed, if they were exaggerating, that
20Himmler was avid for information, telling him that vast
21numbers of Jews had been murdered.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, and you say, oh, it is not really credible that
24Hitler knew anything about that?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not see the connection between those two statements.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have been, I think, in the services, have you not?

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