Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition
Pages 51 - 55 of 195
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1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Answer the question even so. Would you describe it as very
2limited and experimental?
3 A. [Mr Irving] Not on this scale. This is systematic.
4 MR RAMPTON: It is systematic, huge scale, using gas trucks to
6 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. No question at all. Can I refer you back to the
7letter where it says Greiser writing to Himmler of the
8special treatment "approved by you in agreement with
9Heydrich"? Again, there is no reference to Hitler, I am
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. We are not going to have that argument at the
13 A. [Mr Irving] It is not unimportant, Mr Rampton. Surely, if Hitler had
14given the order, they would all willingly have said, "On
15the instructions of the Fuhrer, we are carrying out our
16beloved Fuhrer instructions", but that is not in the
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, if you bother to read yesterday's transcript,
19you will know precisely what I say about this. I spelt it
20out at his Lordship's request, and there it is for you and
21anybody else who wants to see it in black and white.
22 A. [Mr Irving] My comment was about three lines and your response is
23about ten. I think my comment is more valuable.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] No doubt you do, Mr Irving, or we should not be here.
25 A. [Mr Irving] You have failed to establish the link upwards to Hitler.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] So you keep asserting. I beg to differ, but I am not
1going develop that until the end of this case.
2 Now, Mr Irving, page 36 please. Again, my Lord,
3I do this for completeness because on page 36 of Professor
4Browning we move southwards to Yugoslavia, and again
5I have the document if anybody wants to see it. In this
6instance I will ask Mr Irving to glance at it in a minute
7for one particular reason.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it worth a general question first of all
9as to whether what is now accepted as having happened at
10Chelmno, broadly speaking, was happening at Treblinka and
12 MR RAMPTON: Yes. There are two particular reasons to refer to
13the document. Have you read these two paragraphs?
14 A. [Mr Irving] The Yugoslavia one?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
16 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, I read it and there is no question at all that the
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you accept therefore that they shot all the Jewish men
19first and then, sometime after in spring of 1942, they
20gassed all the women and children, using a gas truck?
21 A. [Mr Irving] That is the interpretation to derive from these records,
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now could I please ask you to look -- in fact this is the
24name of this document, though it is referred to by
25Professor Browning. It is H1 (xv). You will not have it
1 A. [Mr Irving] What is the document?
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is a letter from Harold Turner to Wolf.
3 A. [Mr Irving] I know this document.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] I have given him a German pronounciation. Perhaps he was
6 A. [Mr Irving] Again, I do not think we are going to have any dispute
7with this letter.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] You may not do, but there are two questions which, at any
9rate, if you already know the answers, I want his Lordship
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there a copy for me because it is one of
12the files I do not have here.
13 MR RAMPTON: It is page 849. I do not know if I mentioned
14this, my Lord? What Miss Rogers and I are going to do is
15try and put together a bundle of core documents.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wondered about that.
17 MR RAMPTON: By reference to the transcripts. Whether we can
18do it at the end of this week, I do not know, but we will
19try. By reference to the transcript we can see which ones
20are likely to be important. Your Lordship mentioned three
21this morning already.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Thank you.
23 MR RAMPTON: This is a three-page document from somebody called
24Stadtrat Dr Turner. What does Stadtrat mean?
25 A. [Mr Irving] It is the equivalent of a Privy Counsellor.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] OK. He is in Belgrade, is that right?
1 A. [Mr Irving] In Serbia, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] In Serbia, and he is writing to Karl Wolf, who is
3Himmler's Adjutant and liaison officer with Hitler. Is
5 A. [Mr Irving] He is writing to Karl Wolf, who is Himmler's Adjutant.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] I thought you agreed with me yesterday that there was a
7time when I do not know how long a time or what the dates
8were, when Wolf was a liaison officer.
9 A. [Mr Irving] Wolf was liaison officer to Hitler from August 26th 1939.
10Whether he was still at this time or not, I do not know.
11There was a matrimonial problem.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is obviously going to be important that we find that
13out. I am sorry, I have been given some history.
14 A. [Mr Irving] He was out of favour with Hitler.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] We will deal with this later?
16 A. [Mr Irving] I thought you probably would.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is too complicated to for me to pick up at this stage.
18Can you just look at the first page of this letter? I am
19sorry, somebody has written something on the top. I do
20not think that is probably the original. Do you?
21 A. [Mr Irving] No.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] I think that is a later edition. But I am interested in
23what looks like pencil, rather bad pencil, capital letters
24A R, with two underlines. Do you see that?
25 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. It is interesting, is it not?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you think it possible that somebody in Berlin put those
1on, possible only, and put it into the Aktion Reinhardt
3 A. [Mr Irving] Can I reserve judgment on that until tomorrow? I will
4look at my copy. I have a copy of the original. We will
5see then if it was he person who did the handwriting at
6the top or on the original but let us assume for the
7moment that it is on the original for your purposes.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. Assume it is an original.
9 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you think that is possible?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] You will correct me because you probably have a much
13better copy than I have, but am I wrong in thinking that
14there is no security classification on this document?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Except on the rubber stamp. You can also make out the AR
16to which I drew attention yesterday on the July 1942
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] That just means action Reinhardt.
19 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. I think that is a reasonable interpretation. I do
20not think anyone else has spotted that, apart from you and
21me, Mr Rampton.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, the absence of a security?
23 A. [Mr Irving] No. It is he initials A R. They appear to have
24established a separate file for A R, Aktion Reinhardt.
25 MR RAMPTON: Stadtrat Dr Turner is writing to Wolf?
26 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
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