Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 195

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    Right. But, Mr Rampton, the point really
 1that is concerning me a little is you are insisting (and
 2it may be you are right to do so) on going in your
 3cross-examination of Mr Irving to a lot of the source
 4material. This is a bit second-hand, is it not?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Of course it is and I would much rather have the
 6original. The fact is I do not have it. I will try to
 7get it. I have a feeling that I have seen it somewhere,
 8but I cannot at the moment remember where. But there it
 9is. I will try to get it.
10     The purpose of this cross-examination is not, my
11Lord, to, as it were, investigate the Defendants'
12efficiency or bona fides in the material that they have
13disclosed. The purpose of it is to see whether I can get
14Mr Irving to agree about what the evidence actually
16 A. [Mr Irving]     May I also point out that the references to Operation
17Reinhard are not apparently contained in the documents
18quoted, but they are the interpolation of the author of
19this book, Mr Yitzhak or whoever it is. I mean, this is
20the kind of thing that worries me, that these things are
21slid in. There is no reference to Operation Reinhard in
22the quotations actually given.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, what was Odilo Globocnik's special mission?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     He was chief of police in Lublin at this time.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why should Brack write to Himmler about the Globocnik's
26special mission?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, in the final analysis we are probably on the
 2same side in this document.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think we are too.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     But I do not want to be ambushed with secondhand sources
 5like this.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If we are on the same side, Mr Irving, there is no ambush,
 7is there?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you are ambushing me with second-hand sources like
 9this where I have no means of testing the integrity of the
10document. I would like to make certain observations about
11the nature of affidavits sworn in Nuremberg which I shall
12probably do when I come to cross-examination of Professor
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us cut this short. Would the Defendants,
15if they can, unearth this document? In the meantime, you
16have your answer that "special mission" probably does
17refer to extermination.
18 MR RAMPTON:     But I am unapologetic, my Lord, because that is
19not actually the most important part of this letter.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You mean you have not get to the most
21important part?
22 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is at the bottom of the page.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we press on?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, please. "'Upon his renewed request, I have
25now transferred to him additional personnel. Globocnik
26took this opportunity to explain to me his idea that the

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 1action against the Jews", that is pretty explicit, is it
 2not, Mr Irving?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, of course, at this time they are busy cleaning all
 4the Jews out of the General Government which is the
 5actioning of the Jews.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What would Dr Brack have to do with that?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, quite. "'... should be carried out with all deliberate
 9speed, in order to avoid getting stuck [in the middle]'"--
10That is in square brackets; I know not why -- "'one of
11these days when some sort of difficulty may force us to
12stop. You, yourself, Reichsfuhrer'", that is Himmler,
13"'once voiced to me your opinion that the requirements of
14secrecy also oblige us to act as quickly as possible.
15Both conceptions are thus directed in principle towards
16the same result, and according to my experience, they are
17more than justified'".
18     Again looking at that, as a matter of
19probability, is Brack not saying two things? Brack,
20remember, Mr Irving, is master of the gassing apparatus.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "You do not need secrecy to exterminate lice; you do need
23secrecy to cloak the killing of people"?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I quite agree. That is undoubtedly, on the balance of
25probabilities, the overall burden of this document.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     However, if I may now make my own comments on it?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please do.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     At no point is it being said (as it could so easily have
 4been said) "This operation which the Fuhrer has commanded
 5should be done" or anything like that. It is purely about
 6"Your opinion, Mr Himmler. You suggested this. We are
 7doing that". This is still failing to establish the
 8bridge between the upper link of the system, which so far
 9is Mr Himmler, and Adolf Hitler himself, which is what
10I have always maintained.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, you see, that is only part of what you have
12maintained. What you have consistently maintained, so far
13as I am aware, until perhaps we got some concession in
14this court yesterday, what you have also maintained is
15Jews were not killed by the use of homicidal gas?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, I disagree. I have repeatedly allowed that they were
17killed in gas vans.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On a limited scale. Yes, sorry. I will read you
19something. You will probably recognize it. I have not
20got a date for it, I am afraid. 1992, what does it come
21from? What is the IHR called in 1992? The institute of
22Historical Review? It is something you wrote about the
23Goebbels' diary.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably about the Eichmann papers.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is about the Eichmann papers, that is right. You are
26talking about Eichmann.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Because Eichmann in his papers describes himself having
 2sat inside the front of a bus or a truck which is being
 3driven around with people being gassed in the back.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My Lord, for reference -- not to get it out -- the
 5reference is file D3(i), tab 30. You say of Eichmann:
 6"I do not know why he recounted that kind of detail in
 7his memoirs. It is an ugly piece of circumstantial
 8evidence". I do not know what it was. It was something
 9about shooting children or something at Minsk. "It is an
10ugly piece of circumstantial evidence, but it lends
11credibility and authenticity to the descriptions, what a
12writer calls verisimilitude. It did no surprise me. He
13also describes, and I have to say this being an honest
14historian, going to another location a few weeks later and
15being driven around in a bus, then being told by the bus
16driver to look through a peep hole into the back of the
17bus where he saw a number of prisoners being gassed by the
18exhaust fumes". Then, Mr Irving, this: "So I accept that
19this kind of experiment was made on a very limited scale"?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. We are talking about, even in your own paper, eight
21or nine trucks, I believe, which is a very limited scale.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, it would help me if one could see
23quite where we have got now. You have, I will not use the
24word "concession" because I can understand why Mr Irving
25does not like it put that way, but in relation to gas
26vans, one has that being carried out on a limited

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