Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 195

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    Clearly, a lot of the men did not like doing it, but a lot
 1volunteered for the work. So there is an entire book
 2written on this subject recently. This is Witte, right?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, this is two pages from a book, this
 4footnote 262, to Professor Longerich's, the second part of
 5his report. I will, if I may, read from nearly the top of
 6the page.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     260, are you talking about?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, in fact, I had better start with 16. That is
 9the internal page number on the left-hand side. The
10German personnel, I do not know even know whose book this
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yitzhak Arad.
13 MR RAMPTON:     "Odilo Globocnik's first" under "German Personnel"
14"was to organize the manpower required for the
15construction and operation of the killing centres. The
16people assigned to Operation Reinhard came from the
17following sources: 1. SS and policemen who served under
18Globocnik's command in the Lublin district until Operation
19Reinhard". Then there is a number. "Members of the SS
20and Police staffs or units. 3. Chancellery of the Fuhrer
21- Euthanasia programme". A total of 450 men.
22     "The most important group of Operation Reinhard
23came from the euthanasia programme. They brought with
24them knowledge and experience in setting up and operating
25gassing institutions for mass murder. They filled the key
26posts involved with the extermination methods, the

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 1planning and construction of three death camps - Belzec,
 2Sobibor and Treblinka - and the command over these
 3camps". So far, that is just Mr Arad speaking.
 4     Now, Mr Irving, here is a report of something
 5Dr Brack is later to have said: "Victor Brack gave
 6evidence in his trial after the war about the transfer of
 7the euthanasia personnel to Operation Reinhard:
 8     "'In 1941, I received an order to discontinue
 9the euthanasia programme. In order to retain the
10personnel that had been relieved of these duties and in
11order to be able to start a new euthanasia programme after
12the war, Bouhler asked me - I think after a conference
13with Himmler - to send this personnel to Lublin and place
14it at the disposal of SS Brigadefuhrer Globocnik". Are
15you familiar with that evidence, Mr Irving?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I was reading this a few days ago, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you never read it before?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Just a few days ago I read it for the first time.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a Nuremberg piece of evidence, is it not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     According to the footnote, it comes from somebody else's
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From what?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     From somebody else's book.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think -- maybe it is not your fault; I made the same
25mistake when I first looked at it -- the footnotes in
26question are those under the heading "Chapter Two" the

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 1next page?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well. It is an affidavit, yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 16, so it is likely, I think, is
 4it not?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I think so, particularly when we looked a bit
 6further down the page. Anyhow the text goes on as
 8     "The first group of euthanasia personnel,
 9numbering a few dozen men, arrived at Lublin between the
10end of October and the end of December 1941. Among them
11was Kriminalkommissar of Police Christian Wirth, the
12highest ranking officer from the euthanasia programme
13assigned to Operation Reinhard, and Oberscharfuhrer Josef
14Oberhauser. Additional people from the euthanasia
15programme arrived in Lublin during the first months of
161942. Viktor Brack visited Lublin at the beginning of May
171942 and discussed with Globocnik the contribution of the
18euthanasia organization to the task of exterminating
19Jews. Globocnik asked for more euthanasia personnel to
20be placed under his command. His request was accepted.
21After this meeting Brack wrote to Himmler:
22     "'In accordance with my orders from Reichsleiter
23Bouhler, I have long ago" -- that would mean October 1941,
24I assume, according to this historical context, would it
25not, Mr Irving?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It could, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- "put at Brigadefuhrer Globocnik's disposal part of my
 2manpower to aid him in carrying out his special
 3mission'". Pause there, do you accept that that special
 4mission was the extermination of hundreds of thousands of
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I make a general comment about the unsatisfactory
 7nature of this kind of evidence?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but can you answer the question first?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I do not, not on the basis just of this one extract
10without knowing what the German document said, without
11seeing the classifications on it, without knowing the
12original wording. Why are we being presented with
13somebody else's book as a source, just being given
14extracts from it in English?
15 MR RAMPTON:     We will try to remedy our negligent behaviour,
16Mr Irving, but assume for a moment that is a fair
17translation of the German of Brack's original letter in
18May 1942. Do you agree that it as reference to a special
19mission by Globocnik which means exterminating Jews in
20Eastern Poland?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     On the balance of probabilities, yes, but I would like to
22know why we are not being shown the original document.
23You have had teams of researchers working in the archives
24who could have produced the original affidavit and the
25original letter, and we are only being produced somebody's
26gloss, somebody's chosen excerpts. I will draw attention

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 1to one or two -- you are looking weary, Mr Rampton.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am looking weary because.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     But maybe my criteria are different.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you have an application to make, Mr Irving -- this is a
 5court of law and not some forum for you to expound your
 6views about this, that and the other, in particular the
 7Defendants' weakness.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, frankly I would have hoped that the court
 9would have made these observations.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, if you have an application to make for further
11discovery, make it to his Lordship at the proper time,
12will you?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have hoped that the court would have made the
14observation about the quality of this kind of evidence.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Since you invite me to, I have some sympathy
16for what you are just saying because this may be quite an
17important document, I do not know. As far as I can see,
18the reference for it in the note 7 is to some Nuremberg
19documents, but it does not quite read like an extract from
20a Nuremberg document.
21 MR RAMPTON:     It is a letter, my Lord, and many of the Nuremberg
22documents are letters.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are they?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. We have looked at several of them in the
25last couple of days.

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