Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 195

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    No. I am not trying to devalue the document. I am trying
 1historical context, your interpretation makes no sense
 2whatsoever, does it?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Equally less does your interpretation make any sense, if
 4I may say so.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, consider another possibility.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     You are putting the narrowest possible definition on this
 7extraordinary broad phrase, the solution of the Jewish
 8problem. We have been hearing for days how the Final
 9Solution of the Jewish problem was the Holocaust. Here is
10a document saying he wants it all postponed until after
11the war is over and suddenly you say this document is of
12no value at all, and all your historians have never
13mentioned it until now they are forced to because I have
14put it in this court.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you write to Professor Jekel?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who I think actually found this document?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     When I pointed him where to find it.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He wrote an article in a German newspaper first off about
20this, did he not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     If you remember, I found the staff evidence analysis sheet
22which pointed out the document had once existed.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The fact is, whenever you have said, as you so frequently
24have, that all the other historians have ignored this,
25Abraham Jekel is, I suppose, is a historian?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     When does he claim to have found it?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know. I thought you just conceded that he did.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     If it is a question of who was first.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But he certainly has not ignored it, has he?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, he cannot ignore it now.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are fencing a little bit.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I am not interested in defending Professor Jekel
 7any more than I am Professor Evans. I am sure they can
 8both fight for themselves. On 28th February 1978 you
 9wrote to Professor Jekel in German from London, saying
10that you thought that this document could date anywhere
11between October 1941 and March 1942, did you not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is actually a recognition of yet another explanation
14of this curious document, is it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     In the meantime, of course, I have checked on the
16interrogations of everybody who was present at that
17session in 1942, so we know much more narrowly when the
18document originates from.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So you say, but one reasonable interpretation of this
21 A. [Mr Irving]     You say so I say, that is why I am standing here in the
22witness box.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know. I am only saying that because I have not read
24those things myself. I do not actually have to say that I
25need to rely on what you say in the witness box.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I would not say something in the witness box

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 1under oath if I was not speaking the truth.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have to say, I am afraid, Mr Irving, on a number of
 3occasions in this court you have said things from the
 4witness box which I do not accept as being the truth and
 5which I will characterise it at the end of the case as
 6being knowingly untrue.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     There is of course a solution for that kind of problem
 8known as the Aitken solution and, if you want to go that
 9road, you can, but I think you will find it very
11 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know what that is.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask two questions, first of all,
13Mr Irving? Would you or would you not accept that the
14theory that Mr Rampton is propounding, namely that this
15Schlegelberger note is really confined to the problem of
16the mischlinge, is a feasible one?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It does hold water but it is an alternative theory, my
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is alternative?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And a viable theory?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Except for the fact that the document does not say this
23Jewish problem, it says the solution of the Jewish
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Apart from that fact, would I also be right that in
26Hitler's War you have espoused 100 per cent the theory

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 1that it is in fact a highly significant statement because
 2it is referring to postponing the Jewish question
 3altogether until after the end of the war?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, with respect, I would draw attention to the fact
 5that in that very paragraph you are alluding to, I refer
 6to the fact that it came immediately after the discussion
 7about the half Jews and the mixed Jews.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is true. You think that is enough to tell the reader
 9that this may not really be a very significant statement?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it tells the intelligent reader the kind of context
11in which this document was found. It has taken Professor
12Evans, I think, eight pages to analyse the value of this
13document. I did not have eight pages. I have one
14paragraph or less.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I must say I happen to believe his
16Lordship is right, that is very, what I shall say, weasley
17reference to the mischlinge question in Hitler's War.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     His Lordship did not say weasley reference. I do not
19think he used those words.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I interpret what I hear or see, Mr Irving. I suggest to
21you that the reference to the mischlinge question in
22Hitler's War is not apt to lead the reader to suppose that
23you are saying, which you are plainly not, that the
24so-called Schlegelberger note has anything to do with the
25mischlinge question. Not directly.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I will not read it out, my Lord, but it is the third

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 1paragraph on page 464.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I know.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have it well in mind. I have in mind what
 4you say in the last sentence of that paragraph.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I rely simply on that paragraph and my own comment on it.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I think I have it here.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, if it helps -- it probably will
 8not -- I think I have got the picture on the
 9Schlegelberger note because I have read Professor Evans
10and I have heard Mr Irving. You may say there are lots of
11other points to take, but I thought I would say that to
13 MR RAMPTON:     But there is one other main point, or two other
14main points. Whatever one may think of what was written
15in Hitler's War in 1991, if one were inclined to be
16generous to Mr Irving and say, well, he has mentioned the
17two in juxtaposition, therefore, one might think, though
18it is not explicit, what he has had to say about it since
19then and before is very much more categorical about, in
20his mind, the importance, or at any rate in his expression
21the importance, of this document. My Lord, I give an
22example from 1984:
23     "Finally, I think the most cardinal piece of
24proof in this entire story of what Hitler knew about what
25was going on, is a document that mysteriously vanished
26from the Nuremberg files in 1945. It is clear", and then

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