Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition
Pages 176 - 180 of 195
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1 Q. [Mr Rampton] I know you are looking at your web site copy.
2 A. [Mr Irving] No. I am looking at the one on the left. This is the
3original document with the stamp on the left.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] So you say, but the other document with 12th March 1942
5has the stamp number 155 on it.
6 A. [Mr Irving] Well I do not have ----
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] You will find it in H1 (vii) at page 371.
8 A. [Mr Irving] Previously, of course, you could not find it. Now you can
9find it. Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] There is no evidence, is there, that these file page
11numbers are contradictory? One is 109 followed by 111.
12 A. [Mr Irving] This is why we cannot be absolutely certain as to exactly
13which sequence within the month they are shuffled.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] You cannot assert with any confidence that the anonymous
15undated Freisler document was generated or prompted by the
16dated and signed note of the 12th March 1942, can you?
17 A. [Mr Irving] Within the space of a month you can be pretty certain.
18You can say it was after March 6th.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] If this relates to the question of the mischlinge at all?
20 A. [Mr Irving] Well, it was within this file and we know where it is
21placed in the file, and there are no documents outside
22that time frame, so on a high degree of probability that
23is the time, and we know when, reasonable from other
24documents, you know when the conversation took place
25between Schlegelberger and Lammas.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now, Mr Irving, consider a problem of real substance.
1 A. [Mr Irving] The problem of real substance is that I am the only
2historian to mention these documents. Everybody else
3pretends they do not exist, although they have ----
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, you have grasped it with your usual boyish
5enthusiasm because you think it acquits Adolf Hitler of
6any hand in the mass murder of Jews.
7 A. [Mr Irving] Which is precisely why the other historians have not even
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, that was not what I was going to ask you
10about. The problem you do not seem to have faced up to is
11this. I am going to ask you a question first. What in
12your version of history was in Hitler's mind the entlosung
13(?), and we notice this document does not use that word,
14to be put into effect after the war in Hitler's mind in
16 A. [Mr Irving] Well, at this time, of course, as you know, I will say he
17was talking about deportation overseas, or deportation
18beyond the pale.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] As a first step to that desirable end beyond the pale,
20were the deportations from the Outreich and the
22 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Those had already begun in September or October 1941?
24 A. [Mr Irving] That is correct.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] What on earth then would it mean for a high ranking Civil
26Servant such as Lammas to say: Hitler wants that which has
1already been put into effect on his own orders of
2September 1941 to be postponed until the end of the war?
3 A. [Mr Irving] Can you look at the full text of the document? The full
4text of document says: "The Fuhrer has repeatedly said
5that he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed
6until the war is over and for this reason he does not want
7all this continued talking about it. He does not want all
8this to-ing and fro-ing within the ministry, but this is
9at the height of the military crisis".
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] That goes back right into the circle which his Lordship
11has drawn for you, does it not? If it is a general
12statement by Hitler about the losung of the Jewish
13question which is to be treated as evidence of Hitler's
14intention as at the 3rd or 12th March 1942, then it is a
15nonsense, because that entlosung has already been put into
16operation. It started in October 1941.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And it is still in operation, would that that
18not be right.
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, and it is still going on.
20 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] It makes absolute nonsense. If, on the other hand, this
22is a limited reference to the mischlinge question being
23discussed by Heydrich and his colleagues, then it makes
24perfect sense, it does not say that but this is the proper
25interpretation, this part of the losung has to be
26deferred. Hitler is not interested in it.
1 A. [Mr Irving] That is not exactly what it says. It does not say this
2solution of this Jewish problem, and does not this
3document also therefore destroy your Riegner document
4which you quoted to the court with Adolf Hitler allegedly
5saying he wanted everything finished this year, for which
6purpose they are using the prussic acid, I am sure you
7remember the content of the Riegner document, which is
8only a week or two after this one. If you were right, this
9would destroy that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I would not go down that road.
11 MR RAMPTON: I am not going to. I am not picking up that
13 A. [Mr Irving] Can I also remind you, of course, that this is not
14Hitler's word? This is second hand already. This is
15Schlegelberger being told by Lammas what Hitler had said
16to him, with Schlegelberger making the note.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Let us try and get a little common sense into this, shall
19 A. [Mr Irving] Do not attach too much importance to whether it is losung
20or entlosung that is the word that is being used.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am not, but it is one of the little things that, though
22significant to an historian, is not decisive. I am not
23saying that. Let us use common sense and objectivity.
24During this period and for seven months up to this period,
25according to you, Hitler's version of the losung or the
26entlosung has been in top gear.
1 A. [Mr Irving] It has been gathering momentum, first one City then
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] It would not make any sense for Lammas to report that
4Hitler wants what is now taking place on his command to be
5postponed until the end of war, would it? So we are not
6talking about any general losung plainly?
7 A. [Mr Irving] We are talking about the overall completion of every I
8dotted and every T crossed.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Exactly, including including the solution of the
10mischlinge problem. Do you follow?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Can we stand back from these trivia and look at the
12overall effect of the document? This is a high level
13diamond document of unquestioned integrity, stating that
14Hitler wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed
15until after the war is over and that is what the document
16states. We do not have to read between lines any more
17unless you want to try and devalue the document.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. I am not trying to devalue the document. I am trying
19to help you, if I may put it so patronisingly, to see the
20light because you just will not, will you? Here you have
21a document which refers to Hitler having said he wants the
22solution of the Jewish question postponed until after the
23war. If you extract it from all its historical, rip it off
24the wall, take it out of its historical context, then
25yes, of course, it is a sort of diamond or golden sword
26that you like to brandish. But, if you put it in its
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