Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 195

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    So would I, particularly since, as one can see
 1to the "Losung".
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, there would be many Juden frager, would
 3there not?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, precisely, of which I have no doubt the
 5mischlinge one was a knotty one, because I think the
 6evidence is that Hitler himself did not think that it was
 7a good idea to split marriages and send what might be
 8called half and halfs off on the trains. That is right,
 9is it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If you were to pursue this line of argument, the document
11would say that the solution of this Jewish problem would
12need to be postponed.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly, Mr Irving.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     He is talking about the solution of the Jewish problem
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is another problem with the document. You would have
17expected it to say diese Juden frager?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Of this Jewish problem, but it does not, of course.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I quite agree.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     So that does not help you very much.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not looking for help, Mr Irving. You see, you have
22completely the wrong end of the stick.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am trying to help you because I am enjoying this.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are not helping me at all because you are always
25punting to the same end of the pond. I am not. I am in
26the middle and I am looking at all the lily pads around me

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 1and wondering what the answer is. I do not think it is
 2clear that this is a general statement by Hitler in the
 3context of the file in which it was found, which would be
 4a floating statement of no significance at all, that
 5Hitler has said yesterday, "Stop all this talk about
 6mischlinge because I have said that the whole Jewish
 7question is to go off to the end of the war". I do not
 8think that is the only possible explanation. I think
 9anybody who leaps on that band wagon and ignores all the
10others is not being a respectable and competent historian.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     You are not, with respect, being a respectable and
12competent counsel if you ignore the document that
13immediately precede this note, which is Schlegelberger
14writing to Lammas, saying that ugly things seem to be
15looming ahead, I really think I ought to talk about this
16with you before we go any further. Lammas then writes
17back to him saying, no, the Fuhrer does not want to be
18bothered with this kind of thing. He wants all the Jewish
19problem postponed until the end of the war.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say, write back. Where is Schlegelberger's signature
21on that thing?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Could I see it, because are you assuming
23I know. What is this note about ugly things going on
24because that would be very relevant, it seems to me?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     It is immediately preceding this in the file.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the web site?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is certainly in the actual file, which is the
 2file here. While they are looking for it, I will just get
 3it to the front. It would be on the web site definitely.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may not have been reproduced.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I am certainly not aware of it.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It is probably page 1564 of the web site just off the top
 7of my head. Yes, here it is. If I can just read it
 8straight out while you are looking for it, my Lord, it is
 9March 12th 1942. This is six days after the conference.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I have the original German here,
11I think. Can you just identify it and then give it to his
12Lordship to look at?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have found it in the web site.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I have not got the web site file. I just want to
15make sure that we are talking about the same document?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It is from the same Justice Ministry file. It is
17paginated in that series 01/109, in the original wartime
18series, it is just two documents ahead of the
19Schlegelberger note, dated March 12th 1942:
20     "Dear Reichs Minister Dr Lammas, I have just
21been briefed by my personal assistant on the outcome of
22the conference of March 6th concerning the treatment of
23Jews and mixed race Jews. I am still awaiting the
24official protocol. After the briefing by my personal
25assistant there appear to be decisions in preparation
26which for the larger part I consider to be quite out of

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 1the question, quite impossible, as the outcome of the
 2conferences at which an adviser or a personal assistant of
 3your house has also taken part will form the basis for the
 4Fuhrer's decision. I would urgently request that I can
 5have in good time a conversation with you in person, a
 6personal conversation with you, about the matter. As soon
 7as the protocol of the session is in front of me, I will
 8allow myself to telephone you and to ask you whether and
 9when we can have that talk."
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, that seems to me to run quite
11counter to the proposition for which you contend because
12that is dealing entirely with the problem of Juden and
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Jews and mixed race. "The Jews and" I think is
15significant there. But, be that as it may, my Lord, even
16if you are right, and I am sure your Lordship is right,
17I hesitate to say that your Lordship is wrong in that
18matter, but, even if you are right, what I am saying is,
19and I have reason for saying this, that the outcome was
20the note from Lammas to Schlegelberger, which effectively
21says that the Fuhrer does not want to be bothered about
22this, he wants this whole thing, he wants the solution to
23the Jewish problem postponed until the war is over. If
24I just continue that, we also know from interrogations of
25people who were at the conferences that Lammas came back
26to them and said he had mentioned it to the Fuhrer with

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 1precisely that outcome. The Fuhrer said he did not want
 2to be bothered with this kind of stuff, postpone it all
 3until the war is over.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All of that points, so far as I see it at the
 5moment, to this having been the narrow question of, if one
 6can call it, mischlinge?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Juden und mischlinge.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I follow that that phraseology is used, but that does not
 9seem to me to be tremendously significant, given the whole
10context of the reference to the conference on 6th March.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate this is one possible interpretation if you
12ignore the fact that the Schlegelberger memorandum says
13die losung der juden frager (?), the solution of the
14Jewish problems, not this Jewish problem.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I have the point about der rather than dies.
16 MR RAMPTON:     That points in one direction, Mr Irving. The
17other considerations point in the opposite direction,
18including, if I may -- I do not know, I am completely
19ignorant but I am told that this is a good point by those
20like you that have inspected the file. The file number on
21the top right-hand side of what you call the
22Schlegelberger memo, I prefer for safety sake to call it
23the Freisler document, is 153.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, with the handwritten number 153 on it?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. There is stamp on the one I have.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but the one I am looking at is stamped on the left.

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