Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 195

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    No, no, it is not an easy document for any open-minded
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     He may not have seen the staff evidence analysis sheet
 3which I saw back in 1970, but then again I do not think he
 4has done the work that I have.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you understand what I am saying?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If the German translation is difficult because it is not
 8clear -- we will have to get Dr Longerich to tell us about
 9this in due course -- but if the German is difficult in
10translation and it is uncertain whether it is a perfect or
11a pluperfect that is being used, that is quite an
12important question for an historian because if it is the
13pluperfect that is being used, then it may very well be
14that all Lammers is saying is that he remembers, as we all
15know, that in the early years of the war Hitler had been
16saying, "We will put this off to the end of the war and
17then we will send them all to Madagascar". Do you
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. That would be one escape route if it was possible,
20but I think it would be the most perverse possible
21translation or interpretation of this document.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is just a little point along the historian's road when
23he is trying to reach a tentative conclusion about where
24this document is to be placed in time and in topic and,
25therefore, what its significance is?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Being "placed in time", do you mean when it was actually

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 1composed or what period it is referring to?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     (A) when it was composed; (B) what period it is referring
 3to, and (C) what topic it is dealing with when it uses the
 4words "die Losung der Judenfrage"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have, if I may say so, taken a big jump into space and
 7declared, in effect, on numerous occasions that it is firm
 8evidence of Hitler's determination in March 1942 or April
 91942 that the Jewish Solution or the Solution of the
10Jewish Question should be put off until the end of the
11war, have you not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Put on the back burner, yes. Let me put it this way
13round. If the document had said not what it does say, but
14if the document had said, "The Fuhrer has repeatedly
15declared that he wants the Jewish Problem solved
16immediately in the most radical possible means", there is
17not an historian in this room who would say, "Well, it
18quite clearly refers to the Final Solution in the brutal
19sense of killing", but because it says Hitler saying,
20"Let's put it on the back burner", everybody starts
21getting into a fuss and saying, "Oh, dear, what does it
22mean? When was it written?"
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I agree.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate problems it causes for you.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I agree, if the document were dated to, let us say,
26sometime in the early 1941, and that is what it said, if

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 1it were dated early 1941 and that is what it said, then,
 2of course, historians would be excited about it?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     But, Mr Rampton, you will notice that at the top left-hand
 4corner of the document there are serial numbers that have
 5been stamped 01/111 and so on, and we are in the fortunate
 6position of knowing what the other documents in that file
 7were and what date they were, so what it was filed between
 8which is a very reasonable indication of approximately
 9what week and month it was generated.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you take the trouble to read Professor Evans' report at
11any rate before you cross-examine ----
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, he, apparently, knows a great deal less about this
13than I do.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please, Mr Irving. Calm down and let me finish my
15question. You will find all of this laid out with great
16care and detail (which I am certainly not going to go
17through now) ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Has he mentioned the staff evidence analysis sheets? I do
19not think so.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, does it simplify matters if I say
21I am prepared to accept that there is good internal
22evidence that it is March or thereabouts 1942?
23 MR RAMPTON:     No, I really think that would be unsafe. There is
24some internal evidence.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right. Just assume that, but really then
26it may become a question of what the Judenfrage was?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree. But even that I am not ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not clear, sorry, you are getting it
 3from every direction.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. Your Lordship was interrupted by what
 5I call harassment from my right.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I harass you and just ask you, where does
 7one find the material on which Professor Evans bases his
 8proposition, namely that the Jewish question that is being
 9discussed is the problem of half-Jews, as I think they
10were called?
11 MR RAMPTON:     This is one of the things that one can see if one
12goes back to page 464 as a starting point in Mr Irving's
13book, he himself draws attention to that.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes. What was at that time actuel was the question of
15who is a Jew, which I think they still cannot decide
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your Lordship can see the first part of the main paragraph
18in the middle of page 464 makes reference to this what is
19called the "Mischling" question. It says, quite
20correctly, that Heydrich held a second conference all
21about that on 6th -- it does not give the date, but the
22date is 6th March. You will find that, my Lord, on page
23375. It may be one should start earlier, but this is a
24long and detailed part of Professor Evans' report and I do
25not believe that it is going to help anybody if I read out
26great chunks from it at the moment.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     But is it not a reasonable inference that this document,
 2therefore, came after that conference?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is certainly one of the available inferences and it is
 4one which Professor Evans himself has said in his report
 5that he thinks is the likeliest?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     So we have wasted an awful lot of the court's time ----
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, we have not, Mr Irving, because there are problems
 8with that interpretation, and this is my whole point. You
 9will not face up to the problems of the documents which
10you embrace so enthusiastically. You will just have to be
11patient until I tell you what I believe the problems may
13     My Lord, I wonder if your Lordship might read
14from paragraph 7 on page 374 and going down to paragraph 9
15on page 376? We have the source documents here.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     To the end of 9?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry, my Lord, end of 9, yes, if your Lordship
18pleases, yes. That will do fine.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had read that before. That is what I would
20be interested to know what Mr Irving says about that.
21 MR RAMPTON:     So would I, particularly since, as one can see
22from the original document -- I am not asking your
23Lordship to look at it -- the conference about the
24Mischling and the Mischeyer is actually headed "Ent
25Losung der Judenfrage" whereas one notices that Lammers'
26statement, or the note of Lammers' statement, refers only

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