Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 195

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    Well, no, it will not, I am afraid, because, as
 1often in these cases, the markings on the note may be
 2thought to have some significance. It is necessary to
 3look at the actual note. That, my Lord, is to be found in
 4two places. It is in H1 (viii) at page 368, which is the
 5Evans' copy, but it is also to be found on Mr Irving's web
 6site -- in some senses this is a more satisfactory copy --
 7at page 1561 of file D8(iv).
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not got that either -- yes, I have.
 9That is better actually.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship might appreciate looking at that one
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Instead?
13 MR RAMPTON:     No both, and maybe put the Evans one away. That
14is matter for your Lordship entirely. It is the same
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will stick with the one I have got. Page,
17sorry? I did not catch that in the web site.
18 MR RAMPTON:     In the Evans' one, my Lord?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, the web site one.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Web site one is 1561. It is in a box at the top
21of the page.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     That has the translation with it?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pardon?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     That has the translation with it.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does too.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you got it?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it here.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     You translate it as meaning: "Mr Reich Minister
 3Lammers told me, informed me, that the Fuhrer had
 4repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear the
 5solution of the Jewish problem has been postponed until
 6after the war is over". Which are the words which say
 7that he wants to hear?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     "Wissen", he wants to know that, he wants to -- I am
 9trying to remain, adhere as closely as possible to the
10sense of the document, "wissen volle".
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. Then you go on: "That being so, the current
12discussions are of purely theoretical value, Mr Reich
13Minister Lammers' opinion. He will moreover take pains to
14ensure that, whatever happens, no fundamental decisions
15are taken without his knowledge in consequence of a
16surprise briefing by any third party."
17     Now, that document is undated, is it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     That is undated, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It comes from a file of somewhat miscellaneous documents,
20does it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is a Ministry of Justice file headed "Treatment
22of the Jews".
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     "The Reichs Ministry of Justice", the label on the jacket
25of the file is [German].
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My understanding, however, is that this file was one that

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 1was used by the Allies or may even have been put together
 2by the Allies; is that right?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     A photocopy of the file was made at the 777 Berlin
 4Document Centre, and the photocopies were supplied to the
 5prosecution authorities at Nuremberg, where they were
 6handled by Dr Kempner.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you look -- I do not want to read it out because it is
 8really too boring in a sense -- I wonder if you could
 9look, read to yourself, and I would ask your Lordship to
10do the same, please, paragraphs 4, 5, 6 and 7, the first
11sentence of 7, perhaps the whole of 7, of Professor Evans'
12report starting on page 364? To hear me read it out would
13drive everybody mad, I am sure.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, he obviously has problems with it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, do you not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Not at all.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you read the whole of that?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause a moment. I am sure Mr Irving
19knows it by heart. I do not.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I am rather amused by the problems he has with it. This
21is one document that just does not fit into the Holocaust
22historians' repertoire.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 MR RAMPTON:     You have been absolutely categorical that this
25document comes from March 1942, have you not, Mr Irving?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the end of March or early April.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you see on your copy in the web site the name
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you think of those letters or digits which appear
 5before Mr Freisler's name?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Staatssekretar, STS, big S, little T -- this is old German
 7handwriting -- [German] handwriting it is called --
 8capital S, little T, full stop, S, Staatssekretar. He was
 9State secretary in the Ministry of Justice.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why has it got his name on it?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the routing list. It is going to go, first of
12all, to the State Secretary, then to the person whose
13department is listed on the next line, department 4, then
14to department 5. Normally, you would expect there to be a
15little tick or a check mark next to it or an initial to
16indicate that, yes, they have seen it. So this is not a
17man who has written it. This is who it is intended for.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, please, let us remind ourselves of what you said
19about this document. First of all, page 464 of Hitler's
20War 1991. When did you discover this document, by the
22 A. [Mr Irving]     In stages, if I may put it like that. Beginning in 1970,
23I found the reference in a summary of it, and then
24I received the actual document itself from a German
25historian in about 1978 and simultaneously, I believe,
26from the United States national archives.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did not have it then when you first -- I do not know
 2if it is in '77 Hitler's War or not. I am not interested
 3if it is?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It could not be if he did not have it until
 6 MR RAMPTON:     No, I would not have thought ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, let me be just slightly more specific. Your
 8Lordship will recall that I said that photocopies went to
 9the prosecution authorities in Nuremberg. The location of
10the origin, of the originals, I do not know thereafter,
11but the photocopies remained in Nuremberg.
12     The Americans produced what was called a staff
13evidence analysis sheet which listed the contents of that
14little clip of documents which I have here in my hand. It
15listed five documents in that clip, and document No. 4 was
16note stating that Hitler intended to postpone solution of
17the Jewish problem until after the war which, obviously,
18is something which immediately attracted my attention.
19     This staff evidence analysis sheet is dated June
2022nd 1946, in the middle of the Nuremberg trials, in other
21words. When I went to the file which this referenced, all
22the other documents, the photocopies, were in that file.
23This one had vanished. It took some years to locate the
24originals with the original file still in it, the original
25document still in it. I can only surmise that this is
26possibly totally uncalled for, that the allied prosecution

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