Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 195

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    Well, it is an even harder use of the word. "Entfernte"
 1really means "to remove from".
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is how Dr Longerich, he has removed the Jewish
 3bacillus from the German body, that is what he means, is
 4it not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not the specific passage that I referred to.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It actually means placed at distance?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but obviously Longerich is referring to a different
 8passage. Mr Rampton was talking about expelling them from
 9their jobs or their positions as doctors and lawyers and
10so on.
11 MR RAMPTON:     When you talk of expulsion in the previous
12paragraph, you put in brackets "aussiedlung"?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was not a word Hitler used, was it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Ausseidlung?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Hitler used the word "entfernte".
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is Himmler who is using that word.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, and for your readers you translated expulsion
19as ausseidlung.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     In the July 1944 note?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, Mr Irving, it is not an enormous point, but do
22you see, if you use the word "expulsion" in one paragraph
23and then translate it into aussiedlung?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, in the next paragraph, when are you talking about
26what Hitler said and you use the same word in its present

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 1participle, he is going to think it is the same word, is
 2he not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Not necessarily. You can translate words backwards and
 4forwards two or three times and end up with totally
 5different words. "Aussiedlung" in the July 1944 note was
 6the original word in the original handwriting of Himmler.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Nowhere do I find -- correct me if I am wrong -- in any
 8of your published works at least one natural explanation
 9of this passage in Hitler's speech on 26th May 1944, which
10is this: "I solved the matter simply in the most simple
11way I could which is by killing them. I am sorry that it
12was not more humane". You could of course have gone on to
13say, I am sure that is what he meant to say. You have to
14explain away what Himmler had said on the previous
15occasion as well. But I do not even find that explanation
16anywhere do I ?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     If you look on page 632, Mr Rampton, at the end of the
18Adolf Hitler speech, May 26th 1944.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes I see that.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     We have spirited applause at the end of the speech and
21then the two lines as follows. This is me, David
22Irving. "In Auschwitz"In Auschwitz, the defunct
23paraphernalia of death- idle since late 1943- began to
24clank again as the first trainloads from Hungary arrived."
25Does this not say everything to you?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it does not. That is exactly my point.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     After we have listened to these two speeches set out at
 2unusual length, if I may say so, almost the whole page of
 3the book, I then say: For once, I give the reader a little
 4hint as to what cause and effect is.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why does the poor little reader -- in 91 they have just
 6become slave labour at the I G Farben plant but that is a
 7different point. We will come to that.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I think this is quite an important point. This is the way
 9do things when you write books. You give the document,
10you give the quote and, in case you think the reader is
11not going to get the point, you spell it out in one and a
12half lines. You say what you are going to say, you say
13what you say and then you say what you have said.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, surely, in a book like this, had you not been
15set on exculpating Adolf Hitler, you would have said,
16would you not, and evidence, evidence, of what Hitler was
17referring to by the simple means was killing, is that in
18July of 1944 or before, in consequence of the fact that
19the Hungarians had surrendered their 400,000 Jews, by
20order of the high hierarchy in Berlin, Auschwitz started
21up again?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, how many lines is that?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     You say "so what" but ----
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You put in what, if I may say so, is a lot of Hitler's
26sludge which you did not need?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I thought -- this is not Hitler sludge. This is a
 2pure speech. I am the first person to find it and you
 3will find that when I found something for the first time,
 4I tended to put more than usual in so that other
 5historians can have a bite at it too in case they cannot
 6get hold of the original transcript.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I, if you are about to leave that,
 8Mr Rampton, just ask ----
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I am, I am going to go away from that now.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- Mr Irving what the defunct paraphernalia
11of death at Auschwitz actually were?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I prefer to leave it like that at that point.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, but I am asking you now, when you wrote that you must
14have had something in mind.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     When I wrote that, I assumed that they had gas chambers,
16the whole factory of death paraphernalia, yes, my Lord.
17You will find that when we get to the 1991 edition, that
18sentence has been changed.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I follow that. Thank you.
20 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I am going to leave that aspect of
21Hitler's knowledge in the spring of '44 and move backwards
22in time because it is dealt with as a separate topic in
23Professor Evans. That is what Mr Irving calls the
24Schlegelberger note.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we spell that for the benefit of the

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     It is "S C H L E G E B E R G E R". Before I come
 2on to this and, Mr Irving, I call it the so-called
 3Schlegelberger note because, whatever you may think, we
 4and I, that is to say, are by no means certain that that
 5is what it ought to be called. The reasons for that will
 6emerge in a moment. But before we start on this topic,
 7you just said about Hitler's May 26th speech that you do
 8not extrapolate "I am inclined to stick more closely to
 9what we find in the record with no quantum leap", yes?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, bear that in mind, will you, as we look at your
12treatment of this particular document. My Lord, it
13starts, this exercise, which I am afraid is a little bit
14tedious, however it must be done, on page 363 of Professor
15Evans' report.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have we got the Schlegelberger note
17somewhere? Is it worth looking at that or not?
18 MR RAMPTON:     It certainly is. It will be necessary to look at
19it. Yes, it will.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I have the entire file with the original just in case we
21need it.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The best copy, well, there are two copies of it. There is
23a translation of it at the top of page 364 of Professor
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That will do, I suspect.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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