Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 195

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    "Consider too Himmler's speech of May 24th in
 1this in mind, Himmler had confronted the Jewish problem
 2too. It was solved uncompromisingly on orders and at the
 3dictate of sound common sense." I am not sure I think your
 4translation is very good, Mr Irving, I have to say so.
 5"One page later Himmler's speech again hinted that Jewish
 6women and children also being liquidated". It did not
 7hint. It said so in plain terms, did it not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, he does not actually say he is killing them but the
 9hint is plainly there. That is what is happening to
10them. If I had said he said that he was killing them,
11then I would have been wrong. He says, it would be wrong
12to allow them to emerge as the avengers against the
13fathers and the children.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not emerge, grow into the avengers. If you
15are not allowed to grow into something, that means you are
16stopped from growing. That means you are being
17exterminated. That is Mr Rampton's point.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree, my Lord. I am being as pedantic as I can in the
19rendition of this. I am saying that he did not actually
20say we are killing them, but he dropped a broad enough
21hint that he is killing them.
22 MR RAMPTON:     At the bottom of the page you write the footnote
234: "This page alone was also retyped and possibly inserted
24at a later date in the typescript". But I want to take
25you back in that context to what I would call a deliberate
26distortion of the sense of what Himmler said, to what you

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 1said about the speech of 5th May, which I cannot find in
 2the 1991 edition that is on page 630. It is in the last
 3quarter of the page: "On May 5th 1944, however, Himmler
 4tried a new version or adapted it to his audience of
 5generals. After revealing in now stereo typed sentences
 6that he had had uncompromisingly solved the Jewish problem
 7in Germany and the German occupied countries, he added:
 8I am telling this to you as my comrades. We are all
 9soldiers regardless of which uniform we wear. You can
10imagine how I felt executing this soldierly order issued
11to me but I obediently complied and carried it out to the
12best of my convictions. Never before, say you and never
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask just what you are reading from now? I am lost.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 630 of the first edition?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     OK.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I got to last line on 630: "Never before and never
18after did Himmler hint at a Fuhrer order"?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Fuhrer underlined.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Fuhrer in italics?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Fuhrer order but there is reason to doubt that he dared
23show this passage to his Fuhrer ". I am not bothered
24about that sentence, Mr Irving, because you do set out in
25the next paragraph an extract from the speech of 24th
26May. What I am bothered about is the footnote. "This is

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 1footnote 3, page 28 of the large face typed script
 2containing this pregnant sentence where only Hitler was
 3empowered to issue a soldierly order to Himmler, was
 4manifestly retyped and inserted in the transcript at later
 5date as a different indenting shows".
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Later date should be later time, presumably.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not saying it was necessarily one or more days later.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, although it is true to say that you set out in this
10book the relevant part of the speech, you do not, as you
11suggested a moment ago, leave the reader to make up his
12own mind as to its effect, because you tell us that it was
13retyped so as Hitler should not see it, the only
14implication of which can be that Himmler was afraid that
15he would be caught by Hitler having told a fib about the
16so-called order.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we read on to the last three lines of the next
18paragraph:"One page later Himmler's speech again hinted
19that women and children also being liquidated. The fact
20remains that in his personal meetings with Hitler the
21Reichsfuhrer continued to talk only of the expulsion of
22the Jews even as late as July 1944".
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are doing exactly the same thing. You are driving the
24readers' focus away from the possibility, or the
25probability as I would suggest, that Hitler had indeed
26issued such an order to Himmler, are you not?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Let me explain to you about the quality of evidence. If
 2you have a handwritten note by a criminal like Himmler,
 3relating to a conversation he has had with Hitler which is
 4precisely the link we are interested in, and all you find
 5in that handwritten note for his own private papers is
 6reference to having talked about aussiedlung. This is not
 7to be ignored as late as July 1944. It may be you can
 8find evidence of equal quality, and I emphasis the word
 9"quality", not some general speaking after the war in a
10war crimes trial to save his own neck, but the quality of
11evidence we are looking at when writing this kind of
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     By July 1944 that must be either euphemism or
14camouflage, must it not, because you have conceded that,
15since October 1943, Hitler knew perfectly well what was
16going on?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So to say that they were only talking of expulsion really
19is not giving a very full and fair picture, is it?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     They also talk of other things, so this is when the whole
21conversation starts about selling off Jews in exchange for
22trucks and so on. The outlines are very confused.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     continue to talk only of expulsion?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     As far as his own records show.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is that not conveying to the reader that, as far as the
26Jews were concerned, Hitler's concern was only with their

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 1expulsion, nothing more sinister?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     To have been completely scientific I should have said, as
 3far as the records show, they only continue to talk about
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Let me repeat my question.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     One assumes, when one is writing a book like this, that
 7you are writing what the records show.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let me repeat my question because I never got an answer to
 9it. It is the fact that you put both speeches into this
10book, but it is also the fact, is it not, that you
11immediately qualify what the reader sees in such a way as
12to suggest that Himmler's reference to a Fuhrer order or
13soldatischen befehl is not to be relied on as evidence
14against Hitler?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot speak for the reasons why the other historians
16felt that they need not mention the fact that these pages
17have been tampered with. I certainly would have been
18delinquent in my duty in quoting these paragraphs without
19mentioning the fact that they were clearly tampered with
20at some time.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, one final thing about this 1977 edition, I do
22not think it is in the 1991 edition. The footnote at the
23bottom of page 631 says this: "Only Hitler was empowered
24to issue a 'soldierly order' to Himmler"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, apart from kind of order that he felt the dictates of
26his conscience, which he also speaks about which is a more

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