Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 195

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    No. It is amended on this page, but not on the next
 1succeeding page. Do you see? The pagination has but not
 2the date?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the pagination.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pagination has but not the date?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it might be a clue as to when the retyping was
 6done. She may have been retyping it the next day for some
 7reason and the way you do when you are writing cheques
 8out, you get the date wrong at the beginning of a year.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right. The dating on this page that we are
10looking at has been altered in manuscript in exactly the
11same way as the preceding three pages that we have, have
12been and they are the first three pages of the speech, are
13they not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So that suggests, no more than suggests, in fact, ever so
16faintly suggests, a chronological integrity?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It suggests to me that whoever has retyped these pages did
18so on 25th and hen realized her error when she looked at
19the dates and then changed 25th to 24th.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the last page.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure that it is important.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I think it is. Look on to the last page we have,
23page 33. Both the date and the page have been altered,
24have they not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now look at the page in question, which is the fourth page

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 1we have?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The last paragraph, and I am going to read from
 4Dr Longerich's translation?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this page 32 or 31?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     31, sorry. "Another question which was decisive", I am
 7reading from the beginning of the last paragraph of the
 8German, "for the inner insecurity of the Reich in Europe
 9was the Jewish question. It was uncompromisingly solved
10after orders and rational recognition"?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     "On orders", I would say.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It should be in the singular.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, "Rachsmehfahr" (?) would be "on orders", my Lord.
14 MR RAMPTON:     "On orders" or "in accordance with orders"?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Following in the sense of "in obedience to"?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     "In accordance with".
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Again, the same point, is it not, Himmler does not
19take orders from anybody but Hitler, does he?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     His men do. The men who carried out the orders were
21taking orders from somebody, namely from him.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. You are suggesting that this is a reference by
23Himmler ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     It is.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- to the orders which he gave to his subordinates?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It is ambiguous. It is totally ambiguous, Mr Rampton,

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 1this particular passage. It could be him referring to
 2orders he had received or orders that his men had
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In that case, there would be no reason, would there, for
 5this page to be altered in case Hitler should see it and
 6blow up?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, we are in no man's land here.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will read on because it is, perhaps you may agree, a
 9rather significant document: "I believe, gentlemen, that
10you know me well know enough to know that I am not a
11bloodthirsty person I am not a man who takes pleasure or
12joy when something rough must be done. However, on the
13other hand, I have such good nerves and such a developed
14sense of duty I could say that much for myself."
15"Developed sense of duty" is the words Grosses flicht
16flift berwusstein".
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, conscious of his duty. "Berwusstein" is
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "When I recognize something as necessary, I can implement
20it without compromise. I have not considered myself
21entitled, this concerns especially the Jewish women and
22children, to allow the children to grow into the avengers
23who will then murder our fathers and our grandchildren.
24That would have been cowardly. Consequently, the question
25was uncompromisingly resolved".
26 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the Himmler gramophone record. He keeps on saying

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 1it in speeches at this time. This is the only occasion
 2and the one previously where he hints at an order.
 3Normally, he swallows it, so to speak, he bites his
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There we have two speeches, subject to your point about
 6what I call your speculation about the reason why the
 7pages change or the typeface changes. Then we have two
 8speeches which say unequivocally really, especially if you
 9put them together, that the mass murder of the Jews, the
10women and the children, was done by Himmler on Hitler's
11orders, do you not? That is what they say on their face?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say two orders you mean the 4th May
14or whenever it was?
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, 5th May. If you put them together ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And 24th May?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     24th May.
18 MR RAMPTON:     --- what he is clearly saying, and I am
19paraphrasing, but this is the interpretation which any
20right minded person would give to these documents on their
21face, Himmler is telling the Generals, as if they did not
22already know, "We have murdered all these people. It was
23a hard task, but we have done it. We have been successful
24and we did it on the orders of the Fuhrer"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     We have to look at the entire body of these speeches,
26Mr Rampton, and say why is it that he hints at on order in

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 1these two speeches, if we ignore the discrepancy in the
 2pagination and so on at moment, but in none of the other
 3speeches? It is almost as though he had run his mouth off
 4here. He is not speaking from a prepared script.
 5     It was a very common trick in Nazi Germany, as
 6in all dictatorships, to imply that you are doing
 7something on the highest orders, "So you had better not
 8question what I am up to, fellows", and I think it was
 9entirely proper, the use that I made of this in my book on
10pages 630 and 631, looking at the original edition, and
11I felt it entirely proper to refer in a two-and-a-half
12line footnote to the fact that there is some reason to
13note that the two pages concerned in both speeches, both
14appear to have been retyped on a different occasion, shall
15we say.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, that is can be said of a whole lot of pages in that
17set which I have only got them all there, I have only
18about six pages?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, not in any of the other speeches, only in
20these speeches and these sections.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maybe they were important speeches, I do not know.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The difference between me and Mr Browning and the other
23experts is that I sat with the original papers in my hand,
24looking at the quality, the texture of the paper, whether
25it was a carbon copy or a ribbon copy, and so on.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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