Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 195

<< 1-5191-195 >>

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The end note to page 630 says (and, no doubt, this is
 2exactly what it says in the 1977 edition), I am reading at
 3the end of the note: "His May 5th speech is on microfilm
 4and that of May 24th", that is another microfilm
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It had been in the text in 1977, but there is no question,
 8since this is a reference to page 630 of the text, that it
 9has left the main stage by the time of the 1991 edition?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     As you can see, I am as baffled as you are by this.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is quite easy.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have edited it out of the text of the 1991 edition,
14but have forgotten to change the end note which is merely
15replicating what was said in 1977?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I amend that statement to say it has been edited out?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     If it has been edited out, of course, many hands edit it.
19The American editors who produce this text may well have
20decided this was just repeating what the next paragraph
21said. I am as baffled as you are and I will look into it
22within the next 24 hours and see what I can make of it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will come back to it.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I will not push that any further for the moment
25until I hear, if you can produce it, what the explanation
26might be. You see, if we look at the history of the thing

.   P-121

 1(with which you are well familiar), you told us yesterday,
 2I think, that by this time, May 1944, it is likely that
 3Hitler was well aware of what Himmler had been doing?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you also told us, I think, that if Hitler had been
 6told or had known earlier in 1942, early 1943, he probably
 7would not have minded very much?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So if you are right, what was Himmler so terrified -- I do
10not accept for a moment you are right; I have to say
11I think it is a fanciful suggestion -- what on earth was
12Himmler afraid of?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler had repeatedly issued injunctions against people
14who were issuing Fuhrer orders of which he had no
15knowledge. There is several examples of that in the
16files. There is one occasion when Albert Speer goes to
17see him and Hitler complains to him that the foreign
18workers are not getting enough to eat. Speer says: "But
19this was a Fuhrer order, mein Fuhrer", and this is
20recorded in the minutes of that conference, and Hitler
21says: "This is the first I have ever heard of any such
22order". So ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not only did Himmler take a risk that what he said to that
24bunch of Generals on 5th May might get back to the Fuhrer
25and he, Himmler, get a rocket, he said it again on 24th,
26did he not?

.   P-122

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we see in exactly what terms?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, you can. It is the next document, 188. Here I do
 3not think I have the whole document. The first three
 4pages, well, let us look at the front of it, first of
 5all. It is translated, my Lord, on page 74 of Longerich,
 6Longerich 1, or the relevant part is. It is a speech in
 7the Reichsfuhrer SS on 24th. The date has been altered
 8suggesting that it was going to be on some other date, do
 9you agree? This is interesting. We will come to that in
10a minute. You see the date at the top has been altered?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     What are you looking at?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Document 188 in the file, H4 (ii). It is the next
13following document.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the speech of 24th May 1944 again at Sonthofen?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you translate the rest of the heading, please?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     "Speech of the Reichsfuhrer SS on 24th May 1944 at
19Sonthofen to the participants in a political ideological
20course (Army Generals)".
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn over the page to the next page in the file?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     In the document or in the...?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the actual document we have?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Such part of it as we have?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 2.

.   P-123

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 2 at the top. In brackets you have: "RF SS
 2Sonthofen", I do not know, but it looks to me as if that
 3date has been changed from 25th or some later date to
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The typist has it wrong on the first three pages and it
 6has been subsequently amended in manuscript or corrected
 7in manuscript.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In places it has been amended, in places it is correct.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Because by the time she has got to page 4 or 5, she has
10realized what the right date should be.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you think the right date was is what I am asking.
12Can you read it? I cannot.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     24th May.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I know what the handwriting says. The overwritten
15typescript looks to me like 25th.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it matter?
17 MR RAMPTON:     It might do, yes.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     We have Himmler's diary for that date, his calendar,
19which shows clearly the speech was on this date.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right. If you look at page 32 as it has at the
21top, again the page numbering has been altered by hand?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There it is typed correctly, 24.5.44?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The very next page it is wrong again?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

.   P-124

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That suggests, does it not, that these pages are for the
 2final version of the transcript, if that is what this is,
 3done, as it were, at different times, some have the right
 4date, some have the wrong date. Is it not odd, Mr Irving,
 5if they are transcripts rather than drafts, that they have
 6different dates on them originally?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I have employed secretaries and you have probably
 8too and dates are frequently things that are wrongly
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So the fact that one page or another has a date altered
11and another does not, the fact that some pages are in
12different typefaces, tells us nothing except that
13different people did different pages?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a possible interpretation, yes, but, of course, it
15is precisely these pages that these phenomena occur.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Well, it goes on -- my copy does not, unfortunately
17-- the key page in this document is 31, four pages into
18the extract that we have got.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the passage in question is at the bottom of that page,
21is it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to read from Longerich's translation?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     These are three pages where the pagination has been
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

.   P-125

<< 1-5191-195 >>