Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 195

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    But suppose the secretaries do a shift job or something
 1later in the same day, perhaps the evening, I do not know
 2what time of the day the speech is made, nor do we know
 3what dates these were drafts were on, do we?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No, we do not.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Rampton, I hope you do not
 6mind, can I just see where we have got to? This is a
 7speech made by Himmler to a whole collection -- how many
 8Gauleiters Reichsleiters?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     This is to top brass in the armed forces.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many would there have been there?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably in the order of 100.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And several of them would be seeing Hitler on a fairly
13regular basis?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And your hypothesis is that Himmler is telling the
16Generals that he has been ordered to take this drastic
17action ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     He is speaking ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- as against Jews?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Once again he is not reading from a prepared script.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but he is telling the generals that when it is not
22true he is inventing the order -- is this your hypothesis
23-- and that is the reason why he has to sanitize the
24version that goes to Hitler?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     If I can paraphrase the way I have put it in my book, my
26Lord, we have any number of speeches where Himmler made

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 1the same kind of statement. This is the only one where he
 2inadvertently, perhaps, talked about a Fuhrer order. He
 3may very well have inadvertently, because the General has
 4spoken of a Fuhrer order because they are accustomed to
 5orders. I do not know what his motive for that was.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is scarcely inadvertent. It is plainly a speech that
 7was carefully prepared in advance.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     He is not reading from a script, my Lord. We have
 9probably in this case, certainly in other cases, like on
10one page of paper he would write down 15 or 20 words on
11the basis of which he would speak.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am bound to say that looking at the bit of paper
13Mr Rampton handed in a moment ago, that looks to me like a
14preparatory draft which was altered ----
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord, it is not.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- for grammatical reasons. Well, you tell me that and
17I will accept it because I expect you have good reason for
18doing so.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It very definitely is not, my Lord. This is a typed
20version taken from either the shorthand notes or, as
21Mr Rampton rightly says, from the sound recording which is
22then edited in handwriting by a third hand. From that is
23then prepared, as we can see by comparison, the large
24Fuhrer size typewriter. All I am saying, my Lord, is one
25has to comment on the fact that this page alone has been
26retyped at a different date and inserted, and ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I follow that.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It is significant.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But what I want to ask you is this, Mr Irving, was Himmler
 4not taking an almighty risk in pretending to the Generals
 5that he had an order when he had not, given that the
 6Generals were going to be, or some of them, in
 7communication directly with Hitler?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     This might be the very reason why he had that page retyped
 9making no reference to a Fuhrer order. We do not know
10what is on the retyped version. I hesitate to venture out
11too far across that particular thin ice. We cannot
12speculate what was on the other version of that page, the
13one that was correctly typed and correctly indented.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I thought you were speculating that it might have been
15sanitized to delete the reference to an order.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, we cannot safely speculate really any more than
17I have done in the book. My Lord, the whole of this
18passage is in my book "Hitler's War" with the entire
19incriminating quotation, and in a footnote of three lines,
20two and a half lines, I have drawn attention to the fact
21that this page is for some reason or other retyped.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I am not sure you are right about it. It is a
23small point, but, to be clear, it is both this and the
24next speech of 24th are in Hitler's War 1977?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     On pages 630 and 631.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. But I think you will find, if you look at page 630

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 1of 1991, I think 4th May has disappeared, has it not?
 2I may be wrong about that.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I would be very surprised indeed if they are.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I compared it with 1977. I think ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I would be prepared to bet a substantial sum of money it
 6has not vanished.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You find it in Hitler's War 1991 because I could not.
 8I am not saying it is not there; I could not find it.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it will be on page 630. Oddly any, it is exactly
10the same page as the old version.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     630 of the old version. Let us compare the two, shall we?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot see it on 630.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I may have to withdraw my bet.
14 MR RAMPTON:     It is on 630 of 1977 ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON:     --- sure enough, and 24th May is on page 631.
17I am baffled to know where to find it in the edition for
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can always come back to this, Mr Irving,
20because it is difficult to find something when you are on
21the hoof, as it were.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I am slightly puzzled because I am just looking at the end
23notes and I see there are two pages of the end notes have
24vanished, three pages of the end notes have vanished from
25your photocopy and I wonder if it is in the end notes

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     That is not very likely, is it, Mr Irving?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I am still on page 830.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If there were an end note about it, it would be in the
 4same part of the text, would it not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     But it would be on page 830 of the end notes which I do
 6not have.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I have.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I have lost mine too.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Either that or it has been shovelled to a different part
10of the book which I -- there has been some major
11structural change to that chapter I can see with all the
12fresh material we have put in.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think the note on page 630 ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not contain it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- helps.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Your end notes in the 1991 edition are done by
17numbers, are they not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     By page number.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I see. My fault. So I have to look to the end note
20to page 630?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which is on page 830?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I may have put it to a different part of the book, but it
23is not in the same place. We can say that anyway.
24 MR RAMPTON:     There is a real oddity here, Mr Irving. You have
25not got it, so I will read it out.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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