Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 195

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    First of all, I have had the advantage that I have seen
 1the original in the archives is a carbon copy, which means
 2that the ribbon copy went somewhere else. It is
 3reasonable to suppose, as this is typed on the large
 4typeface, that the ribbon copy went to Adolf Hitler.
 5     All we can say, however, is that at some time,
 6somebody considered it necessary to retype page 28 which
 7contains the pregnant sentence about the order.
 8I speculate in my book that it is reasonable to assume
 9that the version that went to Adolf Hitler did not have
10this retyped page in. It went in with some different
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is the leap into space which, I am afraid, I do not
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the alternative -- I would be interested to hear
15what your alternative explanation would be.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. I do not see anything in the evidence before my
17eyes. Assuming you are right it was retyped, certainly
18the page numbering has been changed.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     And the indenting is different.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There does not seem to be anything in what I see before my
21eyes to tell me that it was done after or before the other
22pages. There is nothing which I see in this document
23which leads me to think that if it was altered, it was
24altered for any other reason than that Himmler had changed
25his mind about precisely what he wanted to say.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     He did not read from this. This is a transcript of what

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 1he said -- if you appreciate the difference? This is not
 2a script that he read from. This is the typed version of
 3what he said taken from a shorthand note.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, can you look at this document? My Lord, this is
 5another version of the same page which I am told comes
 6from the archives. It was obtained for me yesterday
 7because I thought we might get to this today. There is
 8one for his Lordship and one for Mr Irving. We have in
 9front of us a typescript, not in Fuhrer's size type, have
10we not, Mr Irving?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With a lot of manuscript alterations on it?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Editing, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the top right-hand corner the typewritten No. 17 which
15has not been changed.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at about nine lines down, you see the same
18passage beginning that we were discussing before the
19adjournment, do we not, "Die Judenfrage" at the end of the
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It still has seven lines below that or eight, six to
23seven: "Dieses mehr gegevenen [German - document not
24provided] -- zustattenen befalls war"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I should read the whole thing, "Wie schwer [German -

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 1document not provided] -- befalls war". That is the same
 2phrase as appears in the other version?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That is absolutely correct. Exactly the same, no editing
 4on that passage at all.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But we can, can we not, infer from the page number that
 6the speech was at that stage a good deal shorter because
 7in our other version the page number finally winds up as
 8being 28, I think, does it not? That may be a function of
 9the different size.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Different size typeface.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But I ask you to notice that the top right-hand corner of
12the one we have got in the bundle ----
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- appears to have been changed from a number in its
15teens, does it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Hard to say on the basis of that copy.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In manuscript.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I can only say it is hard to say on the basis of that
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is hard to say, but the first of those digits looks a
21bit like a 1, does it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I can only say it is hard to say.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see, I do not make these observations in order to lead
24to a particular conclusion. All I say is you do not find
25in these different versions and different numberings of a
26page containing the same words, do you, any suggestion

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 1that this page was added at a later date, after some
 2sanitized version had been given to Hitler?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not the suggestion that I made.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, what is it?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I am perfectly content with the suggestion and, in fact,
 6with the clear proof that Himmler actually used these
 7words when speaking to this audience of military gentlemen
 8who were accustomed to accepting orders from above. What
 9I am suggesting is that in the version that he then sent
10to Hitler he retyped that page and replaced it by another
11page that is not before us.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But why do you say that?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Because something has happened to this page. Quite
14clearly something has happened to this page.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But people make alterations to their drafts all the time.
16Look, do you agree that this smaller typeface probably
17represents an earlier generation of the same ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite clearly. It is almost certainly the original
19shorthand version.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what leads you to suppose then that the speech was made
21in these terms, let us suppose this is an earlier draft?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With the manuscript alteration, that is not Himmler's
24writing, an earlier draft, the speech is not made in those
25terms, it is recorded in these terms as they were
26recorded, were they not?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Sometimes they are recorded.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Then comes a transcript or a version anyway?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To be put before the Fuhrer?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And for some reason or another the page which we have here
 7and which is in the draft is removed?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And replaced by something else?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is the evidence for that?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     The fact that this page has clearly been retyped at some
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     And renumbered from there on.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Perhaps it was badly typed in the first place.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is another, third possible alternative, but it is the
18funniest thing, is it not, that this is the one page that
19it happens on. The one page that contains the pregnant
20sentence has clearly been retyped at a different date by a
21different hand on different paper.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why do you say a different date?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, because it is on different paper. It is not taken
24from the same wad of paper that the rest of the speech is
25typed on.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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