Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 195

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    And this frequently happened. I spotted many diaries that
 1"Reichsfuhrer SS", it has a double space after that
 2instead of a single space on the previous page. She has
 3indented by five spaces at the beginning of each
 4paragraph. I am assuming it is a she.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So what do you infer from that?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not, my Lord. All we can say is that for some
 7reason this page was retyped at a different date. We do
 8not whether it was retyped during the war, which is the
 9likelihood. We do not know what has been inserted or
10taken out. On this occasion we do not have the other
11transcripts of that speech. So that is a page that I am
12unhappy about pinning a capital issue on. You do not
13often find a document that has been so clearly tampered
14with as that.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, yes, there is, for example, at least two
16versions of the next speech we are coming to.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     We are looking at this speech though are we not, the fact
18that change just occurs on this page.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I wish you would sometimes let me ask you a question.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not really finished what I was speaking abut.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us pause. Finish your answer and then the
22next question.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     About the falsification of this particular page, the fact
24that this particular page has been clearly retyped at a
25different date and that this is the one page that
26contains, as I quite agree, a pivotal sentence, makes me

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 1very unhappy about just relying on this version of that
 2sentence. I am not saying it is a postwar forgery.
 3I think it is unlikely. I think it is the kind of
 4fumbling that goes on during the war, when people have
 5spotted they have said something wrong and so they have
 6put something else in instead. For example, just for one
 7minute I would say I found exactly the same in the private
 8diary of Henry Stimpson, who was the American Secretary of
 9War who retyped the pages just before Pearl Harbour to cut
10out incriminating material, and as he said later said to
11Henry Morgan: "I have gone through my diaries cutting out
12everything that incriminates President Roosevelt", you can
13spot that if you look at the originals, as I always prefer
14to, rather than looking at printed versions on in this
15case microcopies.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, we will see when we get to the next
17speech similar things have happened?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not the least bit resistant to the idea that that
20particular page, like others of no particular
21significance, was retyped.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many versions of a speech or of pages of a speech do
24you think you go through before you reach the final
25version if you type them out or draft them beforehand?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I have looked at very many of the original Himmler

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 1speeches. As I said, I have must have looked at about ten
 2of these kinds of transcripts, and there are transcripts,
 3there is a whole published volume of Himmler speeches, so
 4you end up with a large number of transcripts to look at.
 5This speech I think is the only one where I found a
 6discrepancy of this magnitude which has not been remarked
 7on by the historians. I am very uneasy that it is this
 8page of all the pages that shows the signs of I would
 9wartime tampering.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not wartime tampering. Can I suggest a natural human
11process for the production of one amongst several pages
12that look different? For example, if you look at page 7,
13the next page, the number at the top of the page has not
14been typed; it has been handwritten.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     From thereon they are handwritten, yes, in the entire
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but what is baffling me, Mr Irving, is why you will
18not actually use your knowledge of the world to advance
19the most likely explanation of this phenomenon, is that
20somebody types version one, Himmler looks at it and he
21says, "Oh, I don't think like that very much", and in
22those days of course you do not have word processors, so
23it has to be retyped on a different typewriter, perhaps
24the same day, perhaps on another day, it matters not.
25This is Himmler's words in Himmler's speech in Himmler's
26own private file.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the man who also wrote on another occasion: "Let
 2us do this for camouflage purposes. I like the new
 3version, it's going to the Fuhrer. Excellent for
 4camouflage purposes." We cannot trust him, unfortunately.
 5When we find a speech has been tampered with in this way,
 6then frankly I mention it, in fact I think in Hitler's War
 7I drew attention to the discrepancy in the numbering and
 8the typeface and the paragraph indent and so on.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did, and in such a way as to suggest that there is
10clear evidence of an order from Hitler to Himmler to carry
11out the extermination programme could not be relied upon.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this a hanging document?
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, yes.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Would you hang somebody on this?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would not hang anybody for anything, as it happens,
16Mr Irving, not even Adolf Hitler if he were here, though
17some people in this room might. This is not a prosecution
18of Adolf Hitler. This is in your mind, should be, not
19setting out to prove something, seeing what the evidence
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but this is precisely the same situation, to my mind,
22as where a court is shown a so-called confession and then
23when you look at the original you find out that one page
24of the confession has been rewritten and inserted at a
25later date. The court would then throw out the whole
26confession, frankly.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This has been put in by the Allies to incriminate Hitler,
 2has it?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     No. You are putting it in to make your point.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I think we probably ought to
 5pause. You have not finished with this and it may be it
 6would be worth looking perhaps after the adjournment at
 7how this is dealt with in whichever of Mr Irving's books
 8it is dealt within.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I did try to find it, my Lord.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we say 5 past 2?
12 (Luncheon Adjournment)
13MR DAVID IRVING, continued.
14Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Now, Mr Irving, will you please tell us slowly and
16carefully why it matters, in your view, if it be right,
17that this page of this speech by Himmler has been retyped?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I have had the advantage, of course, that I have
19refreshed my memory from reading my own book.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     So I will give the same explanation or speculation now as
22I did in my book.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     First of all, I have had the advantage that I have seen
25the original and I work from the original paper of this
26transcript. From the original paper, it is evident that

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