Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 195

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    Mr Rampton, shall we get to that document when we get to
 1it and look at the precise wording?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very well. Let us doing that now. I have it open.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 187.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Page 187.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     There are of course about ten such speeches and you have
 6just picked out two of them. In none of the others does
 7he make any suggestion that there is a Fuhrer order. So
 8it is not just one speech where there is no reference. It
 9is many speeches.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He makes another such reference later the same month,
11about three weeks later. We will come to that probably
12after the adjournment.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Are we also going to look at Adolf Hitler's speech of I
14think it was June 26th 1944?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, indeed I certainly am. Let us start with 5th May
161944. On page 18, tell me who this speech is made to, if
17you will?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is the military leader, the leadership, the top
19brass, shall we say.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The top brass.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I know the names of a number of people who were present.
22General Stumpf was Air Force; General Reinicke was Germany
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Generals of the Wehrmacht.
25 MR RAMPTON:     These are not SS creatures. These are proper
26soldiers; these are Generals of the Wehrmacht, are they

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the top brass of the German armed forces.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On page 28 it has been altered. One can see how these
 4pages evolve sometimes. Page 28. My Lord, it looks like
 5an 18, so one has to look at page 27 at the top, page 5 of
 6the file.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     This is one of the most interesting pages I have ever
 8looked at.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can tell us everything you know about this page in
10just a moment when I have referred you to the relevant
11passage, which I think begins in the middle of the page:
12The Jewish question has been solved within Germany itself
13and in general within the countries occupied by Germany".
14Is that roughly right?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to read on in the English from Dr Longerich's
18     "It was solved in an uncompromising fashion in
19accordance with the life and death struggle of our nation
20in which the existence of our blood is at stake." Yes?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then elipse, if you do not mind. Have you got that?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "You can understand how difficult it was for me"?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     "You can feel with me how difficult it was" yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "To carry out this soldatischen befehl". What is that?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Soldierly order or military order.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "And which I carried out and went through with a sense of
 3obedience", which word is that? Translate the last part
 4of the sentence for me?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     "Which I obeyed and carried out from obedience and from a
 6sense of complete conviction".
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Obedience to whom, Mr Irving, Hitler or his own sense of
 8what was necessary for the sake of the thousand year
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I think the sense of what is coming out of that paragraph
11is a sense of duty.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it is the sense of duty, is it, that gives him the
13soldatischen befehl?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A very odd choice of words, is it not, this soldierly
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The only person who can give Mr Himmler a soldierly order
19is Mr Hitler?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Absolutely right.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pardon?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is saying: "I did what I did because Hitler told me
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I refer to this of course in my Hitler biographies.
26I quoted this with the ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let me put to you the sort of expression you might use.
 2How do you get yourself out of that one then, Mr Irving?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     By counting.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By what?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Counting.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Counting what?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to look at the previous page?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Can you see the number of the page at the top of the
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     27.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It is typed.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The next one is an altered type. I already drew attention
16to that.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     All the following pages have been written in in
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     And so what? Can you continue to count, please? Will you
21count down on page 27 nine lines to the beginning of the
22new paragraph.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In Deuchsland"?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     How many spaces is that paragraph indented by?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have absolutely no idea. I am not a typist, Mr Irving.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I will count for you. Five spaces indented.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You stop interrogating ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You stop interrogating me, if you will, Mr Irving and give
 6me your explanation why, as I now apprehend, you are
 7saying we cannot trust the page we have been looking at?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Because it has been typed -- I have looked at the original
 9of this document, Mr Rampton, you are looking at a
10photocopy. I have looked at the original in the
11archives. It is typed on different, here onwards it is
12typed on a different typewriter, this page, the page 28.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where was it found?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     What do you mean "where was it found"?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where was this speech found, Mr Irving?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I just complete what I am saying?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I would like you to because I want to
18know exactly what you say about ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is very important, my Lord. It has been typed by a
20different typist.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Page 28.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     And this frequently happened. I spotted many diaries that
23had been fumbled with subsequently or pages of documents.
24This had been typed by a different typist. They use
25different ways of typing. You will notice that there is
26more space after the first line on page 28, after the

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