Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 187

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    We will look at some more documents in relation to those
 1with P?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     The documents do not tell us, but perhaps it might be
 3useful if we had a look at a map which will show us
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to, with his Lordship's permission, I am going
 6to give you -- this is new to me, I got it last night, so
 7I have not been hiding it away, it is an original German
 8army I think military railway map?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it one of the ones you --
10 MR RAMPTON:     No, your Lordship, has not got it. I had not it
11until last night.
12 THE WITNESS:     I certainly have not had it.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving has not had it and so everyone can have
14it now, and there is one for the witness (same handed).
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, we are moving on to another issue
16really now.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, we are. I was actually going to suggest that
18I stopped there because I was going to ask just one
19question, and then I could give Mr Irving time to have a
20bit of lunch and perhaps look forward at some of the
21documents which he has referred to here.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Only if he feels he has time to do it over
24 MR RAMPTON:     But I am now going to do what I said I would do
25this morning, which is to look at the true scale and
26nature of what actually happened. This is awkward, I am

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 1sorry, I should have had sellotaped together, but I did
 2not have time. If you just hold them roughly on top of
 3the other because that is how it works, my Lord.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I follow.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     We see Warsaw at the top of the map, then you if
 6go out the key tells us that a double line is a two track
 7railway, and a single line is a single track railway,
 8which is logical enough, is it not? The key is in the
 9bottom right hand corner.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then there is that another marking, which we do not have
12to bother about, which is the actual, I think, German
13railway as opposed to the Russian one or the Polish one.
14A different gauge, I think. The line runs north/east or
15east/north/east out of Warsaw to a place called Malkinia;
16do you see that?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just on the border with White Russia?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And there is a sharp right turn and the first dot down
21that single line is Treblinka.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then if you go to Lublin and you go east/south/east
24towards the Russian border you come to a place Kelm or
26 A. [Mr Irving]     First of all Treblinka and then Kelm, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you go sharp left northwards to Sobibor?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is just again next to the border. If on the other
 4hand you turn right before you get to Kelm or Khelm and go
 5to Savadar, again, travelling right down to the border on
 6a single line you get to Belsec?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Those, Mr Irving, were little villages in the middle of
 9nowhere, and from the 22nd July 1942, if these figures you
10have given in your book are right, which they are not
11quite, but the volume, if you multiply, must be hundreds
12of thousands of Jews transported from Lublin and Warsaw
13and as I shall show you after the adjournment also from
14the East; what were those Jews going to do in these three
15villages on the Russian border?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The documents before me did not tell me.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but try and construct in your own mind, as an
18historian, a convincing explanation.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     There would be any number of convincing explanations, from
20the most sinister to the most innocent. What is the
21object of that exercise? It is irrelevant to the issues
22pleaded here, I shall strongly argue that, it would have
23been --
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you want to take that point, can you --
25 A. [Mr Irving]     -- it would have been irresponsible of me to have
26speculated in this book, which is already overweight, and

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 1start adding in my own totally amateurish speculation.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, you mistake me, Mr Irving, it is probably not
 3your fault I, as his Lordship spotted what I have done,
 4I have taken what you have wrote in the book as a stepping
 5stone to my next exercise, which is to show the scale of
 6the operation, and in due course, and I give you fair
 7warning, to demonstrate that anybody who supposes that
 8those hundreds of thousands of Jews were sent to these
 9tiny little villages, what shall we say, in order to
10restore their health, is either mad or a liar.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     -- Mr Rampton, can I just draw one parallel and say during
12World War II large numbers of people were sent to
13Aldershot, which is also a tiny village, but I do not
14think anybody is alleging there were gas chambers at
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think actually the problem Mr Irving has is
17we moved on a different phase of the case. We are no
18longer dealing with allegations of manipulating the
19historical records which we were when we were going
20through "Hitler's War" and so on. I think really Mr
21Rampton is now on the issue of Holocaust denial, where the
22defence case is that what you have said flies in the face
23of evidence, but it is not an allegation of manipulating
24the record. Do you follow what we are on now?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     The evidence he has adduced so far apart from that is from
26my own books.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You objected to the question, I am trying to
 2explain what I perceive at the moment to be its relevance.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship is absolutely right.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton knows which way he is going, but of course
 5I have to prepare little minefields all the way round just
 6in case.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is important you know where he is going
 8and that is why I was trying to help you. Anyway I think
 9the question perhaps needs to be put again, does it,
10because I am not sure there has been an answer yet.
11 MR RAMPTON:     No. I suggest, Mr Irving, that anybody -- any
12sane, sensible person would deduce from all the evidence,
13all the available evidence, including, if you like, the
14shootings in the East which you have accepted, would
15conclude that these hundreds of thousands of Jews were not
16being shipped to these tiny little places on the Russian
17border in Eastern Poland for a benign purpose?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, what possible other conclusion could somebody
19have drawn from reading that page in my book? You are
20implying that the reader is being invited to draw a
21different conclusion.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am wondering what your position is, you see,
23Mr Irving, because if it is simply this; I accept that the
24Germans systematically murdered Jews in vast numbers
25throughout 1941, accelerating through 1942 1943 and
26reaching a crescendo in 1944, but I simply do not accept

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