Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 187

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    No. You are the historian; what do you think that Himmler
 1in his own mind had in --
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     He knows that the Jews --
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- contemplation when he used the word "ausvanderung"?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     -- he knows that the Jews are being liquidated and that
 5very few of them are surviving, as we know from the entry
 6in Goebbels' diaries of March 1942 which is quite
 7definitely an SS. In other words, the Himmler document. It
 8has gone to Goebbels and has told Goebbels that of those
 9who are deported and I think Goebbels actually mentions
10Lublin, 60 per cent may be fit for work, but 40 per cent
11had to be liquidated or the other way round.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But there is no reason to suppose that Hitler would ever
13have seen this note of 22nd September 1942?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     No, but unfortunately we are confronted with a problem, we
15can only write history safely on the basis of the paper
16before us. But it may well be that two or three pages
17later we come across a document which gives one more clue
18in the direction that I am trying to lead the readers.
19I think it is dishonest just to pick on one fragment and
20say, "Mr Irving has only mentioned this". I have found
21this document. I have mentioned. I have put it on the
22slate for people to read it, and later on we will find
23another document and we will refer to it just the same as
24your Lordship quite rightly pointed out that I had
25mentioned that 10th February 1942 document earlier on. It
26is there somewhere buried in the book and anyone can play

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 1this exercise of yanking one pebble out of the wall and
 2saying "Mr Irving has only painted this one pebble", when
 3the whole picture is there in the book at the end of it.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not being critical at the moment, I am simply trying
 5to understand your thought processes when you approach
 6this document and as I understand it, correct me if I am
 7wrong, I am sorry, Mr Rampton, to go on, you accept that
 8Himmler had it mind that there was mass extermination of
 9Jews going on?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord --
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And that that is what he was referring to when he writes
12"ausvanderung" of the Jews?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I have to be careful, my Lord , because--
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     In paragraph 1?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I am constantly aware that I am under oath here and
16I am also relating something that happened 35 years ago
17when I wrote this manuscript for the first time. These
18particular words you are looking at were written by me
19probably at the end of the 1960s, so I have to be very
20careful when you ask me what my thought processes were.
21I can reconstruct them, but that is probably not a very
22useful exercise. I have to say that I would have been
23aware that later on we have what is called the Korheir
24Report, which is referred to earlier today, where Himmler
25has said: "Redraft this report in a form that we can show
26it to the Fuhrer", which strongly suggests that there is

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 1wool pulling going on. That is why I feel safe in
 2asserting a sentence like that here, because I regard this
 3document as being evidence that quite probably what
 4happened on this occasion was a certain amount of wool
 5pulling. That somebody was being "horn swaggled", as the
 6Americans say.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, Mr Rampton, I interrupted.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     It is all right. I do not think I have many more
 9to ask about that particular sentence. I have made my
10suggestion. I would like you to look, however, at
11something I said I would ask you some questions about, the
12earlier part of this passage which begins on page 466,.
13     Himmler kept his own counsel. From his papers
14it emerges that on 9th July his SS Police Chief
15Kruger... already briefed him on the solution of the
16Jewish problem. On the 16th he visited Hitler.
17Photographs in the modern Polish archives"; do you
18remember, this is not a memory test, I just wonder whether
19you remember where you got the information, Mr Irving,
20that Himmler visited Hitler on the 16th?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have to go back to my card index to check. It
22could have been from a number of sources.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is an entry in Witte which says that he had lunch
24with Hitler on the 14th, but that is something you could
25not have had, because that is one of the entries that has
26only recently emerged from Moscow?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I would not have had that one.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Except, no, I had Himmler's -- I have Himmler's diary
 4here. I will just check it.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see if you can find anything for the 14th July. What
 6have you put, the 16th?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     The 16th July we only have the telephone notes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What, you have put the 16th?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No, the 16th July we only have the telephone notes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I think that is what I have here, yes. Certain, it
11is he saw Hitler either the day before, or a couple of
12days before he went to Auschwitz, is it not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Photographs in the modern Polish archives show him
15[indeed they do] visiting the immense synthetic rubber
16plant. They also show him at the camp itself, on the 17th
17and touring the concentration camp itself on the 18th in
18the company of his Chief Engineer, SS General Hans Cammler
19and Fritz Bracht, the gaulieter of Upper Silesia. Whatever
20later historians would claim Hitler himself never visited
21any concentration camp, let alone Auschwitz. Historians
22would also claim that Himmler witnessed the liquidation of
23a train load of Jews on this occasion. This is
24apocryphal". Blah-blah-blah I will not bother to read
26     Can I go down to the history again? Starting it

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 1on July 19th 1942: "On July 19th 1942, the day after
 2Himmler's tour of Auschwitz, he issued a written order to
 3Kruger 'I decree that the transfer of the entire Jewish
 4population of the General Government is to be carried out
 5and completed by December 31st 1942'." That is a document
 6we will have to look at a bit later, Mr Irving.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Hitler might still be dreaming of Madagascar, but the
 9head office of the Eastern Railroad at Krakow reported
10since July 22nd one train load of 5,000 Jews --"
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I just interrupt there and point to the word "dreaming
12of Madagascar", I think that adequately sums up the
13earlier passage.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say "dreaming", I say talking in a camouflage way, but
15perhaps it really does not matter. It is not a
16reality. "Since July 22nd one train load of 5,000 Jews
17has been running from Warsaw... to Treblinka every day and
18in addition a train load of 5,000 Jews leaves Przemysl
19twice a week for Belsec". Can I stop there. Mr Irving?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will look at some more documents in relation to those
22transports this afternoon. Why was it -- in fact, I think
23the figures are not quite right, but suppose they are for
24the minute, why was it that one train load a day of 5,000
25Jews was going from Warsaw to Treblinka and one twice a
26week of 5,000 Jews to Belsec from the place which begins

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