Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 187

<< 1-5186-187 >>
    Yes, but, of course, these reports I referred to were in
 1severe moral problems and internal unrest caused by the
 2Nazi methods in Poland.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am not saying that there is any certainty
 4about what this document means, but one of its most
 5natural interpretation, surely, is this, that the
 6emigration of the Jews from wherever needed to be further
 7proceeded, if that is the right translation, and Himmler
 8wanted Hitler's views about that. As a subtopic of that,
 9it was proposed that Lublin should be settled with German
10speakers from different parts of Europe. That might
11depend upon the verhaltnisse and the responsibility would
12be that of Globus within the General Government. It does
13not say any more than that on its face, does it?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It says a lot less than that, Mr Rampton, with respect.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why does it say less?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     He is filling in the dots, my Lord, in an overdangerous
17way. First of all, this passage in the right-hand column,
18if I am familiar with these Himmler's notes, is something
19that has been added either after or during the actual
20talk. It is not something which is primarily on the
21agenda, but something which has come up. So this is the
22first reason why it is dangerous to hang too much on
23that. I can only respectfully submit that I made the
24proper use of that by referring only to the content of
25what the note tells us and not being too adventurous about
26speculating to my own advantage or against ----

.   P-81

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am not following at the moment is why
 2you say Mr Rampton is being adventurous. He is simply
 3saying that this means, on a sensible interpretation,
 4Lublin is going to have to be resettled?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That I accept.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     These are the people we intend to resettle there?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That I entirely accept, my Lord.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The circumstances need to be discussed and Globus is going
 9to have something to do with it. That is all Mr Rampton,
10I think, was suggesting that paragraph to mean.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I accept the first two parts of that, my Lord, but when he
12continues to say that when they are talking about
13circumstances and the government general and Globus, this
14can only refer to killing Jews. I think this is a very
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He did not say that.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I did not say that. I have never said it. I will
18say it.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     If Mr Rampton does not say that, then we are totally in
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us take it in stages.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I will say it, but I will not say it yet because I
23have not laid the ground for it, but be sure as eggs
24I will say it, yes, of course.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, then I was right to pre-empt.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you were not. What, Mr Irving, this document also

.   P-82

 1talks about is how to further the emigration of the Jews,
 2does it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     How we are to proceed, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, yes, how are we to proceed. It has already been
 5taking place on a large scale from all different parts of
 6Europe by September 1942, has it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     There are all sorts of train movements going hither and...
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All over the place, both within the general government and
 9out of the Reich, and I do not know what the date of the
10first Slovakian transport was, and so on and so forth.
11That is something which is already well underway. This
12document is silent about what is to happen to those Jews
13or has happened to those. It is completely silent about
14it, is it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why I made the reference about wool being pulled
16over people's eyes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving. It is you who has built a huge mountain
18out of a tiny little mole hill. Assume two completely
19contrary hypotheses either of which could be right:
20Hitler does know what happens to the Jews when they
21arrive, and when they will arrive they are going to be
22killed. That is one hypothesis. He and Himmler would
23very well still need to talk about how to get the process
24continuing and continuing and continuing, until they had
25all gone. That is hypothesis one.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Hypothesis two, Hitler does not know, but, of course, he

.   P-83

 1knows about the deportations because he has authorised it.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So on either hypothesis this is a neutral document?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     If your first hypothesis is correct, if these two men are
 4in cahoots, if I can use gangster slang, why would Himmler
 5need to use euphemisms?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because they are actually talking about how to do the
 7evacuations, the emigrations. You cannot kill somebody in
 8a gas chamber or a pit somewhere near Lublin unless you
 9have them there in the first place. You have to evacuate
10them emigrate them from, say, Berlin or Vienna or Rome or
11wherever it may be and you have to do that. It is a matter
12of logistics. It costs money. The trains are needed by
13the army. It is a necessary stage in the process, and
14there is no reason on earth why Himmler and Hitler should
15not have a conversation about that, is there?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     But if they are in cahoots why do we find nowhere in all
17these hundreds of sheets these agenda, telephone notes and
18all the rest of it anything specific to bear out the
19notion that Hitler had ordered the killing of the European
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you have constructed out of this perfectly natural,
22normal, neutral document and discussion, if you do not
23know the background, a discussion about how to continue
24the deportations, and how to make this into German
25"labensround", this area of Poland, Lublin, you have
26erected on the basis of that flimsy platform, this

.   P-84

 1sentence "Himmler meanwhile continued to pull the wool
 2over Hitler's eyes"?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Because there no reference in this --
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why should there be?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     -- to any of the sinister things that had happening,
 6whatever they are.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why should there be? This is not a deceptive document.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It is. He is using the euphemisms, which your own experts
 9agree are the euphemisms for the extermination operation
10going on.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you accept that, so far as Himmler is
12concerned that when he said "ausvanderung" he was really
13in his own mind visualizing what was going on in the --
14 A. [Mr Irving]     We have a terrible problem with these euphemisms, my Lord,
15and this is that the word, the same word can mean
16different things used by the same person at different
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- well, take this note, do you regard "ausvanderung"
19meaning --
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It could quite possibly mean that, that in his own mind he
21is referring to that, because he knows perfectly well what
22is going on.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- namely?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Shall we just leave it in vague terms, that something ugly
25is happening?
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     

.   P-85

<< 1-5186-187 >>