Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 187

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, it is a problem that faces everybody in the
 2profession, Mr Irving.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, in this volume which you also have, which is
 4the Himmler diary, it is on page 566, and my date reading
 5is correct. It is September 17th. You rather worried me
 6on that.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you are right there in saying it does
 8not in the end matter.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Except that once again, it is only detail, you are quite
10right, my Lord. I will save my triumph in private. It is
11on the left-hand page.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I agree with you.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not matter, Mr Rampton.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to keep this open.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     His Lordship has ruled it does not matter.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn, please, to page 432 of Professor Evans'
17report? There you see the English set out more or less as
18it is in German. Is that not right?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Could you give me the reference in the
20documents as to where one finds that note?
21 MR RAMPTON:     One does not. One has to look in this book. Can
22I hand it up?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry. I assumed it was somewhere.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I cannot find it in ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry. I did not realize there was a
26problem. I am sorry. I have wasted a certain amount of

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 2 MR RAMPTON:     It is quite all right. I think we should have
 3it. My Lord, in H1(ix).
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I probably have not got it here anyway.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     As I have the Witte version, I suggest we give
 6this to your Lordship.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is just so I have the reference really.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     It is at page 364 of the file. Have you got one,
 9Mr Irving?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     No, but I am very familiar with the document. I am the
11one who found it. I am the one who found it and first
12used it.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It says in English, well, in German first,
14"volkstung und ziedlung" which means?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Volkstung und ziedlung.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, "volkstung" is one of those very difficult words to
18translate. It means nationality or ethnicity.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And "sietlung" just mean "settlement"?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     "And settlement", yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then it says: "Judensauswanderung"?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     "Jew emigration".
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Wiezelweitr verfahren werden"?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     "How should we carry on? "How should it be carried on?"
25There is a tick next to it so they discussed it.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then "Besiedlung" Lublin?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     "Resettlement of Lublin" in that sense, really, once it
 2was empty, then settlement.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And a line against it?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     The sense is that they are going to use people, citizens
 5from Lorraine, the Germans from Bosnia and ethnic Germans
 6from Bessarabia which is a province of Romania.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which suggests, does it not, that the Jews who have been
 8sent on an auswanderung will make room -- the Jews of
 9Lublin -- will make room for these people from Loraine,
10Bosnia and Bessarabia?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a reasonable assumption that the two facts are
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then the right-hand column matters not, but
14"verhaltnisse", circumstances, general governor or, no,
15General Government it must be, must it not, Globus?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It could be either, but the likelihood is it is government
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Globus, if I may use a wrong word, is the Czar of Lublin
19is he not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     He is the chief of police.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and Lublin is in the General Government?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it would fall to Globus -- he is an SS man, is he not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     He was one of the mass murderers.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, he was. He was under Himmler's, he is in
26Himmler's ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     He is the senior SS and police chief, Hohere SS und
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So he has been given, or is going to get, the
 4responsibility for the further processing or procedure of
 5the auswanderung and replacement with Germans, ethnic
 6Germans. That is right, is it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you are beginning to join dots in a very
 8adventurous way which is not supported by any of the words
 9actually on the paper in front of me.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Globus, Lublin is in the General Government?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Globus is head of police, or whatever it is, and, as you
13rightly say, one of the mass murderers in Lublin. The
14proposal is that Lublin shall be settled with people of
15German origin from different parts of Europe, and that
16comes immediately under the heading "Emigration of Jews,
17how to be further proceeded"?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Right, but you are missing the first word in that line
19which is "verhaltnisse" which is circumstances,
20conditions, and although, of course, we are now Holocaust
21obsessed in this world at present, other things were
22happening in the government general than just killing Jews
23which is what you would maintain.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, the ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     The resettlement programme, the deportation of large
26numbers of innocent people to uncertain areas in the East

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 1was causing great civilian unrest. There were posters
 2appearing overnight saying, "This week it is the Jews,
 3next week it may be you, Poles". There were major
 4problems of civilian moral problems in the government
 5general and, if you look at my Goebbels' biography, you
 6will see references to this when telegrammes come from the
 7propaganda offices in these regions, back to the Berlin
 8Ministry saying, "We are having major problems caused by
10     So, this is just one example of the dangers of
11leaping from mountain peak to mountain peek. There are
12things happening in between of which this document gives
13us no cognisance, but of which I have cognisance. So that
14why it is very dangerous, I think, to leap to conclusions.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I am not leaping to conclusions, Mr Irving. Though
16I may not have your enormous wisdom and knowledge on this
17topic, I have learned a certain amount. After you have
18had a chance to think about the documents which come up to
19and beyond this point, ending with the conference in
20Berlin on 26th and 28th September -- that is the only that
21comes after this point ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The conference in Berlin between whom?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- we are going to let everybody take cognisance of the
24surrounding material. We can start now if you want.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but, of course, these reports I referred to were in
26my discovery for your experts to see relating to the

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