Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 187

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    I may not know the answer to that -- it is a fair
 1evidence of system, of course, and scale. So it does
 2several jobs at the same time. Can we look, please, first
 3of all, at page 467 of Hitler's War 1991?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     The closing words of the paragraph -- of the chapter?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, they are. It is right to point out that this half
 6page which ends at a half page on page 467 starts with a
 7reference to Himmler on page 466. Perhaps your Lordship
 8might just read that? I have some questions about that
 9also.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     From where?
11 MR RAMPTON:     From "Himmler kept his own counsels".
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just read it? I have read it before,
13but I have to remind myself.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Now, Mr Irving, if you would just look at that for
17a moment, just 467 for the moment? At the end of the
18paragraph you write: "Himmler meanwhile continued to pull
19the wool over Hitler's eyes. On September 17th he calmly
20jotted in his notes for that day's Fuhrer conference:
21     '(1) Jewish immigration; how is it to be handled
22in future? (2) Settlement of Lublin', and noted next to
23these points 'Conditions in general government and
24Globas'" which is Globocnik's nickname. Yet, at the top
25of the page, at the end of the first little paragraph you
26write this: "The Fuhrer himself", and this is a

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 1translation of Himmler's letter to Berger of that
 2date, "The Fuhrer himself has entrusted me with the
 3execution of this arduous order and nobody can deprive me
 4of this responsibility."
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     You did not read out the first part which is to say what
 6the order was.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am so sorry. The task is making the occupied Eastern
 8territories ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     The full text is: "The occupied Eastern territories are
10to be liberated of Jews. The Fuhrer himself has entrusted
11me with the execution of this arduous order. Nobody can
12deprive me of this responsibility."
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am just getting out the original which is "Die besetzen
14osgebete werden Judenfrage", "The occupied East
15territories will be Jew-free", correct?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Well...
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It must be?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what I would refer to as a wooden translation,
19yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, yes. I do not make any apology for it being wooden?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It is me being defensive.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Die durchfuhrung dieses sehr schweren gefalls" --- the
23carrying out of this very hard order -- "hat der Fuhrer
24auf mein schuntten gelecht" -- has the Fuhrer placed on my
25shoulders, is that right?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So Himmler has been given the very hard, sehr schwer, task
 2of clearing the Eastern territories, occupied Eastern
 3territories, of all the Jews, has he not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Rendering the Eastern territories free of the Jews, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. So about what was it, if Himmler is telling the
 6truth about that, that Himmler on, in fact, I think the
 7dates are 22nd and not 17th, but it matters not.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You accept that, do you not, Mr Irving?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That I do not know, but it is not important.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not important, I agree.
11 MR RAMPTON:     On 22nd September, about what was it that Himmler
12was pulling the wool over Hitler's eyes?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     At this time a killing operation had begun, that the
14killings were going on.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Surely not. By what means?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. It is not important for the purposes of
17that answer.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am afraid I think it is. You see, Mr Irving, your
19position is that the gas chambers of Belzec, Sobibor,
20Treblinka and Auschwitz did not exist, so how do you think
21Himmler and his bods were carrying out the killings on a
22massive scale which they did not want Hitler to know
23about?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just checking on the date. Well, my position on that
25really is that on the basis of the documents, I am not in
26a position at this time of writing that to be specific

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 1about what kind of camouflage is going on; but it did seem
 2plain to me on reading this agenda that Himmler had
 3written for his talk with Hitler, dated either September
 417th or 22nd, that if he just jotted down conditions in
 5the government general and Globus there was possibly
 6something sinister being discussed between them, but that
 7Himmler was not going into detail about it. More than
 8that, I could not say on the basis of what I had.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well. We will have a look at the wording of the Himmler
10note.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, it strikes me this is quite
12important. Could we -- this is for my benefit and, bear
13in mind, you have the advantage of me -- I just ask about
14the reference made in Himmler's gentle rebuke of 28th July
15what, Mr Irving, you understand the liberation of the Jews
16entrusted to Himmler by the Fuhrer really means?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     The territories are to be liberated of Jews.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     By the physical deportation or continued shooting or by
19gassing?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     My contention here is that Hitler has clearly ordered the
21Jews turfed out of all these countries and I have always
22said this.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So it means that and no more than that?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     There is no evidence for anything uglier than that, and
25I would be surprised if Professor Evans has found any
26evidence that there was and certainly that there was any

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 1evidence that was before me at the time I wrote the book.
 2I have been very careful not to go over what the evidence
 3actually bears out when I write this. When I quote a
 4document like this, I put in what the document says and
 5I try to let the reader draw their own conclusions.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But even now you would take that view, in the light of
 7your present knowledge?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     With the utmost respect, what I think now is immaterial
 9for the purposes of the issues pleaded.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, I do not agree for the reason I think I explained
11yesterday, namely that if one is judging your approach as
12an historian, how you interpret fresh information is
13something that we can legitimately ask you about; do you
14remember I made that point to you?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate that point, my Lord. But in that case I
16would then have to devote time to looking at the documents
17all over again and reevaluating them in order to be able
18to give a balanced answer to that now.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     If you feel that you would need to do that, I understand.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I would have to do that.
21 MR RAMPTON:     As I am about to embark on the documents, my Lord,
22I will ask the question I was going to ask about the entry
23in the Himmler log, but then maybe Mr Irving could spend a
24little bit of time between the end of that and 2 o'clock
25looking at the documents?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     And having lunch.

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