Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 187

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    Is not the real point on this it was obvious,
 1in Federation
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, absolutely.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     He could well argue that, but I would argue on the
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That, as I understand it, is the way the case
 6is put on this particular table talk.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Your Lordship will certainly attach whatever weight you
 8wish to to that, but the evidence is that Adolf Hitler,
 9certainly since June 1938, had adumbrated the Madagascar
10plan, and he repeatedly referred to it in a rather wistful
11kind of way. He discussed it with the German Navy. The
12German Admiralty actually became involved in a detailed
13plan, so did the German Foreign Office, so did various
14subordinate departments. All I am saying in this sentence
15is that as late as July 1942 in this rather madcap way he
16is still talking of Madagascar.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but it is a question of whether you take him
18seriously or not, is it not? That is what matters, from
19history's point of view.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Should I have suppressed this sentence? Should I
21have dropped it on the floor, the same way as your
22historians have dropped the other documents on the floor
23that do not fit into their arguments?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you please turn over the page in Professor Evans'
25report to page 423, you will see why it is that I suggest
26that when Hitler talks of Madagascar in July 1942 at his

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 1table talk it is mere fanciful waffle. Look at paragraph
 23 in Richard Evans's report, please?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not just waffle, euphemism.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, euphemism, yes. "By early 1942, it had thus
 5been made official that Hitler was no longer aiming at
 6driving Jews out of Europe to Africa. The Madagascar
 7plan, which had already been postponed indefinitely in the
 8Autumn of 1940, was now officially shelved. It is totally
 9misleading to speculate, as Irving does, that Hitler in
10July 1942 'might still be dreaming of Madagascar'. On
1110th February 1942 the Foreign Office official who had
12first proposed the plan for deporting the Jews to
13Madagascar in 1940 wrote that:
14     'Gruppenfuhrer Heydrich has been charged by the
15Fuhrer with carrying out the solution of the Jewish
16question in Europe. In the meantime, the war against the
17Soviet Union has opened up the possibility of placing
18other territories at our disposal for the Final Solution.
19Accordingly, the Fuhrer has decided that the Jews should
20be pushed off not to Madagascar but to the East.
21Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen for
22the final solution any more"?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you implying that Heydrich was the one who called the
24shots and not Hitler?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This appears to be a report at secondhand, admittedly ----
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I am afraid this point rather operates against yourself.

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 1You are implying that Heydrich is the one who made the
 2decisions and not Hitler who is talking here still about
 3Madagascar. I am perfectly ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, because it goes on to say that the Fuhrer
 5has made the decision that it should not be Madagascar.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     The Fuhrer has decided.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     But here, quite clearly, the Fuhrer is still talking about
 8Madagascar in the way that Heads of State do.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it is camouflage; it no longer means anything?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     May I remind you, why the Madagascar plan was dropped was
11because Germany was not in a position to ship the stuff,
12to get the shipping and to transport these emigres
13overseas any more without the ships being torpedoed. He
14is talking about after the war it would be nice if we
15could resume the Madagascar plan.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Maybe, so we can lay our hands on the remaining 4 million
17Jews, perhaps?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not exactly what he says, Mr Rampton. I have
19adhered very closely to what is in the sources. It would
20have been irresponsible of me to have ignored this remark
21in the way that the historians have ignored the other
22documents that do not fit in with their schemes.
23     I am writing a biography of Adolf Hitler, and
24this is very clearly a germane document to include, but to
25give it no more weight than I assigned to it.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So is the Foreign Office document, is it not?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I have mentioned that at the appropriate place in this
 2very volume too.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, the appropriate place, do you say that place -- if
 4you do, I am wrong?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall certainly look it out overnight and bring it
 6before the court so we do not have to waste more time.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But, of course, Hitler had, in fact, already ordered
 8Madagascar to be taken off the menu back in February, so
 9this cannot be taken at face value. Did you write that
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, these are your suppositions for which you have
12no evidence. I can only work on the evidence which is in
13the documents. The table talk, as I have always said, are
14documents of a very high category of authenticity and
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that Foreign Office document of, is it, 10th February,
17is that an authentic document, do you think?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed, yes, but you will accept the planning undergoes
19swings and changes as the climate of the war changes, as
20the advance proceeds on the Eastern Front or as one has
21set backs, then one adapts one's plans.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 423, if you want to cross-refer.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am indebted to your Lordship, yes. This very document
24was quoted by me in full on page 423, the relevant part,
25which is what, no doubt, brought it to Professor Evans'
26attention in the first place.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, may I say what I propose to do next?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That ends that little exercise with the table
 4talks and very little it was, I took too long. It ends on
 524th July. I now propose to lay out as quickly as I can
 6(but it is necessary to look at some original German
 7documents) what was going on, so far as anybody knows from
 8the German documents, from 28th or earlier about this
 9time, end of July 1942, and then I make no secret of it,
10I am going to then end up with Himmler's note of 22nd
11September 1942. That is not quite my terminus.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which is that?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     We have not had that yet.
14 MR RAMPTON:     That is the next topic, but it does require some
15background. It may be best to lay the ground by referring
16to what Mr Irving wrote about it in his book.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you say you are going to be producing to the
18court German documents. Will you make it plain on each
19occasion whether they were documents that were before me
20at the time I wrote the books or not.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a fair point.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I may not know the answer to that -- it is a fair
23point, but it is not the whole of the point by any means
24because you have said something about the Himmler log
25entry of 22nd September 1942, and what I want to do is to
26see whether you adhere to what you there said. It is also

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