Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 187

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    Yes. What I am suggesting is that the use of the
 1more radical solution of which Dr Goebbels spoke was the
 2same as that which was going to befall the criminals.
 3After all, if it had by this time already been decided, as
 4undoubtedly it had, that the German Jews were going to be
 5deported, and lot of Berlin Jews had already gone by May
 61942, it could hardly be, could it, Mr Irving, that Joseph
 7Goebbels would have been pleading for a more radical
 8policy in that regard? That is right, is it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just totally baffled that you are hanging your entire
10case on one little German word "auch" and, if I was in
11that position, I think I would deserve to be hanged, drawn
12and quartered. You have been bedazzled by this recent
13acquisition rather like a new toy. You are trying to make
14something out of it, but I am afraid that it escapes me
15and I think may very well have escaped the court. What
16point are you trying to make out of it? What is
17significant in the quotation is that Hitler is saying once
18again, "There is no point sending them to Siberia because
19that will just toughen them. Let us send them to Africa.
20That is a more reasonable solution." Once again, he is
21not talking about killing.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In May 1942 send them to Africa?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just repeating what is in the documents.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what the document says.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is what the document says but it was not a
26realistic possibility.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler was hoping to win the war, I remind you of that
 2fact. He was an optimist. He was an incurable optimist.
 3People, when they get in that position, hope to win, the
 4same as the defendants in this action. They do not
 5necessarily paint a worse case scenario.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, just so that I try and understand
 7the point that we have been spending a little time on, and
 8looking at it in terms of where you say the manipulation
 9or the distortion occurs in volume 2 of Hitler's War 1991,
10you would criticise Mr Irving's sentence which reads: "But
11he evidently never discussed these realities with Hitler".
12 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, indeed.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the point, is it?
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to respond to that, my Lord, because
16I think that that is not a fair conclusion from this
17material. I think the real allegation is that Mr Rampton
18would have liked that I ladled acres of sludge into my
19manuscript, rather the way Professor Evans has, which
20would have sunken without trace.
21 MR RAMPTON:     There it is. Now finally on table talks for the
22moment at least, your favourite one, Mr Irving, which
23I think is 24th July 1942.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Only favourite because in a sense it brings this
25particular phase to a end. It is the bottom line.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does what?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It brings this particular table talk phase to an end and
 2after that there is nothing more useful to be dug out of
 3them one way or another.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The relevant part of it is very short, and I do not know
 5whether or not there is any way one can get more out of
 6it, but it is on page 422 of Professor Evans' report.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Interestingly, yet again, this is a passage which is in
 8the Picker version of the table talk, but not in the
 9original Heinich Heim version, so it may well be something
10that can be attached to that.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be that Picker was there and Heim was
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Heim also wrote a version of the table talk that day, my
14Lord, in the first person, so it is possible that Picker
15added to the original from his own notes.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Let us look at 466 in your 1991 edition of
17Hitler's War, to start with?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the first paragraph, about lines 6 and 7.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "As late as July 24th", this is the last part of the first
20paragraph, "Hitler was still referring at table to his
21plan to transport the Jews to Madagascar, by now already
22in British hands, or some other Jewish national home after
23the war was over." Yes? Is that, do you think, a fair
24rendering of that part of the table talk?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, did you read the table talk?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     I think we are maybe at cross purposes. That is a
 2fair rendering of the table for that day, is it, what you
 3wrote there?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     The table talk says, "After the war was over, he would
 5rigorously take the standpoint", this is Hitler, "that he
 6would smash after city to pieces if the Jews did not come
 7out and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish
 8national state".
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then it finishes up, I do not know how far down ----
10 A. [Mr Irving]     My reference I can quote "As late as July 24th", this is
11now me in my book, "Hitler was still referring at table to
12his plan to transport the Jews to Madagascar by now
13already in British hands or to some other Jewish national
14home after the war was over".
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where in the table talk does the last piece in evidence
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Which last piece?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Therefore significant".
19 MR RAMPTON:     When it was reported to him that Lithuania was
20also Jew free today, that was, therefore, significant?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, first of all, we do not know what those three little
22dots stand for in the case of Professor Evans. Those
23little dots sometimes stand for two or three paragraphs or
24even pages of text.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course they can. Are you not familiar with this table

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not got it with me.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the significance of that last
 3sentence you have just read out, Mr Rampton? It makes no
 4sense to me at all.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     What it means is that Hitler already knew that it
 6had happened in Lithuania.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     What had happened?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The Jews had been removed from Lithuania?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why is that significant?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Because of what happened next and, of course, with
12what had happened before.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     So you accuse me of a sin of omission yet again, in other
14words, the book should have been 2,000 pages long instead
15of 1,000.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If his plan was to transport everybody to Madagascar after
17the war, why should he think it is significant that
18Lithuania was now Jew free?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. We do not know what the preceding
20sentences say, and I hesitate to express opinion there. It
21looks like the corollary of something that he said in the
22previous sentence which Professor Evans has not vouchsafed
23to us.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is not the real point on this it was obvious,
25or should have been obvious -- this is Professor Evans to
26Mr Irving -- that this was a classic example of camouflage

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