Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 187

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    These two records are created in totally different ways,
 1note pad, writing down things as they were said on which
 2he would then base his subsequent dictation. Dr Goebbels
 3would wait until the following morning, the first hour in
 4his working day, to summon his stenographer, and he would
 5dictate a diary on the previous days events.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But the point might be this, might it not, Mr Irving?
 7Dr Goebbels will have recorded a whole day's events, as
 8you say, over many pages.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but, if there were two or three separate
10conversations, it is quite possible that he would have
11coalesced them.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see, what I am suggesting is that the first part, down
13to the middle of the second paragraph on page 9,
14starting "How little the Jews can assimilate themselves",
15the first part which ends "Therefore, one must liquidate
16the Jewish danger, cost what it will", I think in German ,
17"Deshalb, muss man die jedische Gefall-Liquidierung Koste
18es was es wollen". That is not table talk.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot find it.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you want to have a little time?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I think I can cope with it.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I hesitate to say this and it is
23my fault. I am afraid you have lost me. I am not
24following the point that is being made which is presumably
25eventually a criticism of 465?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I will do it more precisely.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a problem that authors frequently have. When
 2material comes in late, you attach far more significance
 3to it than it really deserves.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     You must leave judgments about significance to me
 5and his Lordship, Mr Irving. You will make your own, no
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, it is my fault, I am sure, but I
 8am just not quite following what we are on at the moment.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I have tried to take it quickly because this sort
10of exercise is tedious. What happens in the end of course
11is that, if you do it too quickly, it gets into a muddle.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Fill me in.
13 MR RAMPTON:     On page 9 there is a sentence which begins, "How
14little the Jews can assimilate themselves to Western
15european life in reality can be seen from the fact", and
16so on, and there is a good deal ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Halfway down the second paragraph.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Halfway down the second paragraph on page 9.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have that.
20 MR RAMPTON:     They get put into a ghetto, they become very
21quickly ghetto-ised again, then there is talk about
22Siberia and then about central Africa.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 MR RAMPTON:     That is reflected in the table talk on page 10,
25starting with the words in the third line "The whole
26prudity of the Jewish people really finds expression" and

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 1so on and so forth. Then there is a reference to the
 2ghetto, and then on the next page there is a reference to
 3Siberia, and on the next page the reference to Africa, and
 4probably one can stop there so far as the Goebbels' diary
 5entry is concerned.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That much I follow. What is the
 8 MR RAMPTON:     The significance is this. What I am putting to
 9Mr Irving is that the earlier part of the Goebbels' diary
10entry, certainly down to the end of the first paragraph on
11page 9, has nothing to do with the table talk at all, but
12represents a private conversation between Hitler and
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, that is an adventurous presumption, I think. If you
15look at the Weidenfeld edition of the table talk, there is
16yet again a totally different version of that table talk,
17and Professor Evans has ignored that completely.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not worrying about that.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It worries me. It should worry. It should have worried
20Professor Evans too, the fact that there are three
21different versions of the same thing.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please, can we stick to the point? If you read
23the first two paragraphs on pages 8 and 9, what you see is
24something a very great deal blunter about the fate of the
25Jews from both sides to the conversation, if it be
26Goebbels and Hitler, than you ever find in the table

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     (Pause for reading) You mean the argument about the need
 3to keep the equilibrium?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the suggestion, perhaps more than a suggestion, the
 5proposal, that it is probably going to be necessary to
 6kill all the people in the prisons as well, because the
 7sentence about the prisoners starts with the little German
 8word "auch".
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are you, Mr Rampton?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot see any plan to kill people in the prisons.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Page 8, my Lord, in indent in small type, there is
12some talk about the Jews. "Thus I plead once again for a
13more radical Jewish policy", this is middle of the page,
14"whereby I am just pushing at an open door with the
15Fuhrer". This has been quoted by a number of people but
16without the context. "The Fuhrer is of the opinion that
17the danger will become greater for us personally the more
18critical the war situation becomes. We find ourselves in
19a similar situation to that of the second half of 1932
20where bashing and stabbing were the order of the day and
21one had to take all possible security measures to escape
22from such a development in one piece. The extermination
23of criminals", and there is no ambiguity about this, "is
24also a necessity of state policy", but the German sentence
25which you find on page 9, when he goes on to say: "Auch
26die ausmerzung ist ein stattspolitische notwendigkeit",

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 1necessity. What I am suggesting is that Goebbels and
 2Hitler had a fairly frank conversation about the fate of
 3the Jews and indeed of the prisoners but, when you get to
 4the table, the larger audience. That all goes up into the
 5air into airy talk about central Africa and Siberia.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     May I just comment that to translate "ausmerzung" as
 7uniquely as "extermination" is either showing the
 8bankruptcy of Professor Evans' vocabulary. Ausmerzung has
 9a very wide range of meanings. It is very similar to
10"ausschlossung". It is rubbing out, wiping out,
11disposing of.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can argue with Professor Evans about that, Mr Irving.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I certainly shall.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, am I wrong in thinking, if this
15is important, I do not know, that the first paragraph of
16this extract from the diary entry is dealing with the
17particular problem in Berlin and the dilemma whether you
18keep the Jews there, because they are better working in
19armaments factory than having in potentially criminal
20elements from the East, or wherever. Then it seems to go
21on to the rather wider question what will happen to people
22in prison if the war situation gets much worse.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that fair?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. What I am suggesting is that the use of the
26word "also" or "auch" may be tending to suggest that the

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