Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 187

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    The point on this is that what Engel is saying
 1else who was not in the know it might mean Siberia. Do
 2you follow me?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that really right? Picker is talking
 4about euphemisms, but Engel is talking about something
 5rather different. That is how a Hitler order emerges. Is
 6that not a different point?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     It is part of the same process.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a very clear picture, in fact, those two lines, of
 9how these Himmler orders emerged, that Bormann would be
10hanging around in the background with a note pad writing
11things down, and eventually an order would be drafted,
12sent out as the Fuhrer has ordered, and sometimes it was
13not what Hitler had ordered at all. There are famous
14examples where Hitler learned of these orders months later
15and said,"Who ordered this?"
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sure that from time to time people got the wrong end
17of the stick but, if Hitler is talking about evacuation of
18the Jews at one of these table talks and is saying, "we
19must get on with it" for example, then Himmler will know
20exactly what Hitler is talking about, and Hitler does not
21have to talk about extermination, does he?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, it is precisely why not only I question but
23also the allied interrogators questioned all these
24surviving members of Hitler's staff very closely on this
25very point. How much discussion was there, whether veiled
26or otherwise? I have to say that I am not saying there

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 1was no discussion. There is one famous episode, if I can
 2just relate for two minute, where Hitler's film camera man
 3personally witnessed a mass shooting of the Jews outside
 4Minsk in August 1941. He had been there with Himmler. He
 5is still alive. I am the one who weedled this story out
 6of him. He came back to Hitler's headquarters with the
 7photographs in his camera. He showed the photographs to
 8General Schmundt, Hitler's wehrmacht adjutant, and
 9Schmundt said to him, "If you know what is good for you,
10you will destroy these photographs", which is what I put
11in my book also. What do you make of a statement like
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I go back to where we started and ask you
14whether you do or not accept that Picker is giving an
15accurate portrayal of talk within Hitler's private circle
16when he says that there is an element of camouflaging
17about the language that was used.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not accept that, my Lord. I fully accept his
19transcripts that are published as transcripts in his
20volume, which is very similar to the table talks but in
21the third person instead of being in the first person.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is not really answering my point.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just about to answer, my Lord. What has been quoted
24from, the passage you are asking me about, is not written
25during the war. It is written in 1977, when the climate
26of fear in Germany has grown to such an extent that

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 1everybody who wants to write a book about Adolf Hitler has
 2to put in a politically correct introduction to make sure
 3it gets past the census. In Germany they have a book
 4censorship body which burns books and closes down
 5bookstores and arrests authors. In order to make sure you
 6get past this book censorship body in modern Germany, you
 7put in politically correct statements in order to avoid
 8trouble. This is a typical example of the kind of
 9politically correct statement to which I would attach no
10evidentiary weight whatsoever without supporting material.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is clear answer. Thank you very much.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I am still on table talks Mr Irving. In Hitler's
13War 1991, there is a reference on page The gulf between
14the actual atrocities in the east, and what Hitler knew or
15said about them, widened. Over lunch on May 15 Hitler
16again merely spoke to staff about transporting the Jews
17eastward; her referred indignantly to the misplaced
18sympathies of the bourgeoisie. How well the Jews were
19faring, he remarked, compared with the German emigrants of
20the nineteenth century - many of whom had even died on
21route to Australia! Goebbels, unhappy that forty thousand
22Jews still remained in'his' Berlin, raised the subject at
23lunch with Hitler on the twenty-ninth. ('I once again
24inform the Fuhrer on my plan to evacuate every single Jew
25from Berlin...') Hitler merely expatiated on the best
26post-war homeland for the Jews. Siberia was out- that

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 1would just produce an even tougher baccilus strain of
 2Jews; Palestine was out too- the Arabs did not want them;
 3perhaps central Africa? At all events, he summed up,
 4western Europe must be liberated of its Jews - there could
 5be no homeland for them there. As late as July 24 Hitler
 6was still referring at table to his plan to transport the
 7Jews to Madagascar - by now already in British hands- or
 8some other Jewish national home after the war was over."
 9So you there, as it were, made use of four different
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The table talk of the 15th May, Goebbels' diary of 30th
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The table talk of 29th May?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the table talk of 24th July?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The Goebbels' diary of May 30th would refer of
19course to the events of May 29th.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is absolutely right. I would like you again, if you
21will, to look at the supplement to Professor Evans' report
22where you will see I think on page 8, starting under the
23cross line, a rather fuller translation of Goebbels' diary
24entry for 30th May 1942. To save my voice and with his
25Lordship's permission, it is quite a long passage, I would
26ask you to read the English. If you have any problems

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 1with it, the German is printed underneath. Starting with
 2the small type on page 8 and ending with the words "here
 3they will not be allowed to have any home any more" on
 4page 9.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     (Pause for reading) Acres of sludge, is it not? If I had
 6to put all that into a book, the book would sink under its
 7own weight.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have read that?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the next page, page 10 at paragraph 3, Professor Evans
11has set out a translation of the table talk for the 29th
12May 1942, and again I ask you to read that.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     (Pause for reading) He is suggesting that it is two
14separate conversations.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. He is suggesting that it is two separate
16conversations. What he is suggesting, and I think you may
17agree with him, is that it is only the last part of the
18Goebbels diary entry, from the middle of second paragraph
19on page 9, that is in fact a report of the table talk
20because there there is a degree of congruence. The words
21are not identical but there is a great deal of similarity
22in the subject matter between what Goebbels wrote in that
23short passage and what we find in the table talk on pages
2410 and 11.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     These two records are created in totally different ways,
26of course. Henry Picker would sit at a side table with a

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