Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition
Pages 46 - 50 of 187
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1 A. [Mr Irving] We are moving on to a new topic now, are we?
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. We are still on table talk. Henry -- was he called
3Henry -- was one of those two people who wrote down what
4Hitler said at these table talks, was he not?
5 A. [Mr Irving] Not strictly accurate.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] You tell me, then.
7 A. [Mr Irving] The primary scribe was Mr Heim, the gentleman I have just
8mentioned. When he was relieved by Henry Picker, Henry
9Picker found in the desk a large number of Heim's original
10transcripts, and he published them under his own name in
11the third person. So he was not always the person who was
12himself present in the case of Mr Picker.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] But Mr Picker would have been there on a number of these
14occasions, would he?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, particularly from 1942 onwards.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can I read from the second sentence on 426? You tell me
17whether this is right or not. "Henry Picker, who took the
18notes at the table talk of 24th July 1942, which I promise
19you we are coming to, claimed that Hitler, even in his
20private circle, had 'never forgotten to keep silent about
21things for which there was no resonance among his table
22companions as amongst the broad mass of out people"' -- it
23must be "our people", unsere volkes. "Only take the
24persecution of the Jews, which he obscured before his
25table companions with references to preparations for the
26establishment of a Jewish national state on the island of
1Madagascar, or alternatively in central Africa." That was
2published in, I think, Berlin in 1997 but also in London
4 A. [Mr Irving] 1977.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] What?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Can we be quite plain that this is not actually wartime
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] I realise that.
9 A. [Mr Irving] This is writing by Mr Picker 32 years after the war was
10over and the climate in German where people were put in
11prison for having the wrong opinions. He wanted to
12publish a volume of Hitler's sayings, so he wrote a
13suitably politically correct introduction.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you tell me because I have missed it?
15Picker was what? A secretary or something more senior?
16 A. [Mr Irving] He replaced Henry Heim as Martin Bormann's adjutant at
17Hitler's table talk, and from 1942 he took over the task
18of writing down Hitler's table conversations in this
19summary form. He died a few years ago. This was
20published in 1977, at the time when this persecution in
21Germany had already begun.
22 MR RAMPTON: You see, this is perhaps reflected, is it not, in
23something -- do you remember Kurt Engel?
24 A. [Mr Irving] Gebhardt Engel, Hitler's army adjutant.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. You interviewed him, I think, in 1971 on several
1 A. [Mr Irving] On several occasions.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] This is the only version I have of it at the moment. Do
3you have Professor Evans' supplementary or amendment
5 A. [Mr Irving] I have received them, but I have not even had time to look
6at them yet. That is the 18 pages that I referred to.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] You have not got it here?
8 A. [Mr Irving] I can comment on.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Put the point, Mr Rampton. I think Mr Irving
10is saying he can cope.
11 MR RAMPTON: Well, I think he should have it.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can he have a copy?
13 MR RAMPTON: I have a copy.
14 A. [Mr Irving] Thank you very much.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] Paragraph 12 on page 16, Mr Irving.
16 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. This is the written transcript that I made after the
17interview with Engel.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is what I understand. I think I have the original
20 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know your handwriting but this must be you. Your
22handwriting is legible, so I can read the handwriting.
23 A. [Mr Irving] I can explain. After every interview with one of these
24gentleman I sat down and wrote a formal protocol on what
25had been discussed between us.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] I think it is best if you just look at this document that
1I have, so that in the transcript you have identified it
2as your document.
3 A. [Mr Irving] Notes on the second interview with General Gerhardt Engel
4at his office, WAH, which is an arms dealers, Dusseldorf
5and so on, 9th December 1970. Then it is the second one
6that you are relying on? Notes on the interview of General
7Gerhardt Engel at his home Dusseldorf, April 5, 1971, in
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Could I have it back?
10 A. [Mr Irving] I just want to make sure that nothing has been omitted.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do check it against the typescript in case of error.
12Thank you. I will read from your manuscript:"When I asked
13his views on Hitler's association with Juden Hausroten (?)
14he confirmed broadly Carl Wolf's statements, and added
15that the Fuhrerbefallen," that means Fuhrer orders.
16 A. [Mr Irving] Is it? Can I check that?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It must be, from the sense. It is in the
18singular but it must really be the plural.
19 MR RAMPTON: There is not just one Fuhrer order throughout the
20war, is there? It has an E on the end.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has not in Professor Evans?
22 A. [Mr Irving] I accept that it should have an E on the end.
23 MR RAMPTON: It has in the manuscript. That is why I am glad I
24have the manuscript. "Frequently resulted from remarks F,
25that is Fuhrer, made at his late discussions, vo 'Hitler
26dutzierte stundenlang' (?). That should have a small S,
1should it? Yes, it is an adverb. He referred to the
2Hewell tagerbruf (?) as proof." That means Hitler just
3rattled on for a long time. That is all that means, is it
4not? "He never summarized the conclusions of these
5discussions. Each was left to pick his own meat from the
6talk, Himmler in his way quiet but efficient, (that was
7how the three quarters of a million strong Waffen (?) SS
8had been born and Bormann more crudely issuing edicts on
9party notepaper beginning der Fuhrer hat befallen" etc.
10That is exactly what would have happened?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. You note incidentally that this is part of my
12collection in Munich which I no longer have access to.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] We must have got this from Munich I suppose?
14 A. [Mr Irving] It has come from the Institute in Munich as part of the
15early collection which is now denied to me.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] If you would like copies of these, we can certainly give
17them to you.
18 A. [Mr Irving] Very generous of you.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the point on this?
20 MR RAMPTON: The point on this is that what Engel is saying
21there reflects what Picker has said in 19 whenever it was
22after the war, that if there are a lot of people, or even
23a few people, unless they are the two or three high
24ranking people alone, Hitler would use euphemism. He
25would use a sort of a thought process. To Himmler, for
26example, Siberia would mean extermination. To somebody
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