Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 187

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In dry tones Hitler's chief statistician, Dr Richard
 2Korheir, had analysed the fate of the world's estimated 17
 3million Jews. Europe's 10 million had dwindled by 45 per
 4cent since 1937 owing to emigration and a high natural
 5mortality rate and the enforced", and these are your
 6quotes, are they, "evacuation"?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is not taken from Korheir?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     He uses "evakierung" but, of course, I think we are agreed
10that "evakierung" often has an ugly connotation.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In 1977 you believed it had the ugliest of all
12connotations, did you not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I repeat what I said. It often has the ugliest, almost
14sinister, connotation.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "The evacuation that had begun with the prohibition of
16emigration ... (reading to the words) ... To Himmler's
17annoyance, on reading the 16 page document on March 23rd,
18he found that it stated expressis ^^ verbage", that is in
19actual words explicitly, "on page 9 that of the 1,449,692
20Jews deported from the Eastern provinces, 1,274,166 had
21been subjected to 'special treatment'" -- now, that is
22zondebehandlung, is it not ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- "at camps in the General Government and a further
25145,301 similarly dealt with in the Warthegau. Himmler
26knew too well that the Fuhrer had in November 1941 ordered

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 1that the Jews", general, "were", italics, "not to be
 2liquidated. On April 1st he had the report edited 'for
 3submission to the Fuhrer' and a few days later, lest he
 4had not made himself plain, instructed that in version for
 5the Fuhrer he 'did not want there to be any mention of
 6special treatment of Jews' whatever".
 7     According to the new text the Jews would have
 8been 'channelled through' the camps to Russia
 9not 'subjected to special treatment' at the camps. As he
10wrote on April 9th, the report would serve magnificently
11for 'camouflage purposes' in later years. Camouflage from
12whom, Mr Irving?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not say but, of course, this passage has remained
14the same in all versions of my book. I think it is an
15eminently satisfactory description of the kind of things
16that were going on at the highest level. People were
17withholding things from people.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not going to reengage on the argument about the
19so-called Fuhrer order of 30th November 1941. We have
20been down that road.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That passage was removed from the subsequent editions.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We know all about that. What is the
23relevance to table talk?
24 MR RAMPTON:     We have had all that. The relevance of this is
25the words unterbehandlung. You see, I suggest to you,
26Mr Irving, that the reason why that was taken out had

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 1nothing whatever to do with the Fuhrer learning of
 2something which he did not ought to know, because the fact
 3is, if the word unterbehandlung had been in there, he
 4would have known exactly what was being talked about,
 5would he not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. The word unterbehandlung was a very
 7common German word, frequently used by even Himmler in
 8totally different ----
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then why did Himmler have it edited?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     He wanted the report cut down from 16 pages to 9 pages
11which is one thing that is quite plain, but he also wanted
12the explicitness, and I have made this quite plain in
13this, that ugly things are happening in the East, and he
14does not want Hitler being told, he does not want his nose
15being rubbed in it. Let us put it like that.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know what the German says but, "subjected to
17special treatment" is a good deal shorter than "channelled
18through to camps in Russia".
19 A. [Mr Irving]     If you subject people to special treatment at camps, then
20this has a very sinister connotation indeed. "Channelled
21through those camps to the east" has a less sinister
22connotation. My primitive reading of this document, and
23maybe you will educate the court differently, is that this
24is being withheld from Hitler. Himmler is saying to the
25statistician, "Write a different version for submission to
26Fuhrer". These words do not occur.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     You keep interrupting me.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, I do not accept that. What Himmler has
 4done is precisely what he said he did. He has camouflaged
 5it so that, when Hitler reads it, he is not going to go
 6through the roof and say, you cannot have a document
 7talking about zonderbehandlung. We all know what that
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Unless you are going to lead evidence which actually bears
10that out, I do not think there is any sustainability
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am offering you another perfectly natural ----
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is a perverse interpretation. If Himmler is
14saying this is an excellent document for camouflage
15purposes, and says "I want a short version for submission
16to the Fuhrer which does not mention these sinister
17words", I think that my interpretation is the most obvious
18interpretation, and in fact I think it bears out
19everything I have said all along, that there is monkey
20work going on along here, and either it is the Richard
21Nixon complex, as I call it, where Hitler may admittedly
22have said, "Do what you want, Mr Himmler, but do not let
23me be told", which I am perfectly prepared to accept may
24have happened.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I suggest to you that precisely the same sort of exercise
26took place at the table talks. In other words, camouflage

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 1language, slightly more delicate language was used than
 2would have been used between, say Hitler and Himmler when
 3discussing these matters.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I have had the advantage -- you are familiar
 5with the table talks, you are also familiar with the
 6German version which has more recently been published.
 7The table talk was written by Martin Bormann's adjutant,
 8Heinreich Heim. Heinrich Heim was a person that
 9I interviewed at great depth personally while he was still
10alive. He was a very educated, cultivated man, an art
11collector, oddly enough, in private life. I questioned
12him in great deal as to how much about the final solution
13was discussed. You are not listening to what I say so
14there is no point in my continuing.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps Mr Rampton is just pretending he is not
17listening. I questioned Mr Heim and the other Adjutants
18in great detail as to how much was discussed in these kind
19of circles, and there was no discussion whatsoever of any
20kind of mass extermination of the Jews at Hitler's table
21or in private or else where at Hitler's headquarters,
22which is what I find very disturbing because I satisfied
23myself, possibly not the court but I satisfied myself,
24that I had won these people's confidence.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn to page 426 of the Professor Evans report

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