Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 187

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    For which you will still need Professor Evans in a
 1Himmler or Goebbels, the Nazi high ups, perhaps Heydrich
 2might be there as a particular honour, and, therefore,
 3there was absolutely no bar, inhibition or restraint on
 4the use of direct language about what was happening, for
 5example, in the East?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Not completely right, Mr Rampton, because certain subjects
 7were taboo. That I do grant.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     The Schierak ^^ family at the end of June 1943, when
10Henrietta von Schierak ^^ said to Hitler that she had seen
11Jews being loaded on tucks in Amsterdam and was this kind
12of inhumanity necessary? There was a lot of glaring went
13on and the family was banished from Hitler's house for the
14rest of the war.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right, but the fact is I think you were
16suggesting there was a degree of candour because Hitler
17was amongst friends?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, he is talking to people whom we know were actually
19the mass murderers, but I was asked a question, Mr Rampton
20asked, I tried to answer honestly that, in fact, they were
21taboo subjects.
22 MR RAMPTON:     There will have been at many of these lunches, or
23I do not know whether they were really lunches or dinners
24or whatever, a whole lot of people who were not Himmler or
25Goebbels, but much lower down the scale, were there not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     People like Heinreich Heim who was Martin Bormann's

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 1private adjutant and took the initial record. He was
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And secretaries and, what are they called, orderlies?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     People like Schmunet, Schau?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The secretary, Krista Schroeder -- people like that?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it is hardly surprising that in that company, as
10opposed to direct face, one-to-one discussion with Himmler
11or Goebbels, Hitler's language should be somewhat cloaked?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That is possible, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to deal with it now because I do not want to
14have to come back to it. Do you remember, you have
15published this information (and as information certainly
16not disputed by us) there was a report, I think, in March
171943, by Himmler's statistician, a man called ^^ Korheir?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Dr Richard Korheir.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Dr Korheir in which at I think about page, what was
20it, 20 -- I cannot remember the page number -- a long
21report, he gave a total for the number of Jews that had
22been killed up to that date, and he separated the Wartige
23from the General Government, and I think the total comes
24to about 1.4 million, does it not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I am going to have to take issue with the way you describe
26the report.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well ----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Because this is going into the record, you said "had been
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well the word actually used was "zondebehandlung"?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but Dr Korheir, not many years ago, wrote a letter to
 6Das Spiegel which is published in which he said that at
 7the time he wrote the report he had no notion that is what
 8that word means. He was a straightforward statistician,
 9just doing a job on the basis of documents shown to him.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is exactly my point.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     But you said "killed". Can we be precise about the use of
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Disposed of"?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Disposed of.
15 MR RAMPTON:     You see, you must be patient because my questions
16build on each other -- at least they usually do?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     But that goes into the transcript of me agreeing to you
18that you are saying that it said that.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but perhaps you will agree in just a moment the word
20actually used was "zondebehandlung"?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     "Zondebehandlung zugefuhrt".
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not have the document.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the actual phrase that he uses.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Himmler had the report typed up in the large Fuhrer type
25so that Hitler could read it; whether he did or not is
26another matter, but he did, did he not?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It was not typed in the large Fuhrer type. It was typed
 2in the small regular German office typewriter. I have
 3never seen a version in the large Fuhrer type of that
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I forget which of your books it is that I read it in, but
 6the assertion by you is that there was a copy prepared for
 7Hitler to read by Himmler?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     An abridged version for Hitler.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just be patient, but is what you tell us in your book, is
10it not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     You were speaking about the 20 page version.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The which?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     You were speaking originally about the 20 page version.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You had better give me a moment to find it. The trouble
15is that your books, like many books, are not as well
16indexed as they might be.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Blame the index now.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think it is in Hitler's War 1977. You do not remember
19the page reference, do you?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     503 to 504.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well done, Mr Irving.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     From the index.
23 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, it is part 2.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Is this point raised anywhere in the
25pleadings, as a matter of interest?
26 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not. Actually, I noticed it sometime

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 1ago, but this arises not as an example of distortion by
 2Mr Irving because it is not. This is a true story. It
 3arises for the reason that I will make clear in a moment
 4which is directly relevant to the way in which we would
 5suggest that the table talks, the language used at the
 6table talks was in some sense sanitized. Perhaps I should
 7start at the second paragraph on page 503? "Nor did
 8Himmler evidently raise with Hitler the progress made on
 9the Jewish problem during their two hour mountain stroll
10on March 30th". This is 1943, is it not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     1943.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did say that. "Hitler wearing a soft peek cap to shade
13his eyes against the alpine glare. Earlier in 1943,
14Himmler had submitted to him", that is Hitler, is it, I do
15not know, "a statistical report on a similar
16topic... (reading to the words) ... he had sponsored since
17Hitler's written order of October 1939. The report was
18typed on a special large face typewriter and clearly went
19to the Fuhrer"?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     That one. In other words, the earlier report was.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I follow you. That is all right. "But did Hitler ever
22see the statistical report that the Reichsfuhrer had
23commissioned at the same time on the Final Solution to the
24Jewish problem in Europe". That is what the report is
25called, is it?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is correct.

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