Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 187

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    No. On the contrary, Mr Rampton, you are not obliged to
 1in quotation marks, and I will have a word or two to say
 2about that with Mr Evans when the time comes. In one
 3quotation he left out 86 words, three sentences, five full
 4stops and two semi-colons.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, well, Mr Irving, I have sufficient confidence in
 6Mr Evans to think that he may be able to deal with that.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I may be able to shake your confidence when the time
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Don't let us -- it not fair -- this is the
10point that is being put to you -- the way you represent
11this in your book on Goebbels suggests that a wholly
12passive policy towards the Jews is what Hitler is telling
13Goebbels should be followed?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord ----
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And, in fact, the word "energetic" is the opposite
16of "passive", is that a fair way of putting the point?
17 MR RAMPTON:     It is another complete perversion of the ----
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not used the word "passive". I have not used the
19word "energetic", my Lord. I have left it neutral. We
20have to bear in mind that we are not dealing with a
21transcript of what Hitler said by court reporters. We are
22dealing with a passage that had been filtered through the
23evil brain of Dr Goebbels who I have shown in the rest of
24the book has a track record of doing things first and then
25claiming in his diary afterwards that he had the Fuhrer's
26sanction for it. For example, when he made Hitler stand

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 1as Vice President which was a disaster for him in 1932,
 2events like that.
 3     The Goebbels' diary again and again and again
 4and the Kristallnacht, the Reich, the Night of Broken
 5Glass, is another example of Goebbels doing something
 6first and subsequently claiming in his diary that he had
 7Hitler's sanctions.
 8     So you have to be very careful before you use
 9the Goebbels' diary as pure gold source material. You
10have to refilter it out of that evil brain.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, can we please take this in two stages? Do you
12agree that the version which you have given in the book is
13completely contrary in sense to that which Dr Goebbels put
14in his diary?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, it is quite plain from the Goebbels'
16diaries that the suicide of the Gottschalt family had
17caused uproar in Berlin life. This is, undoubtedly, what
18they are referring to, the fact that the onset of the
19Holocaust in Berlin, if I can put it that way, the
20deportation of train loads of Jews beginning at this time
21is leading to these human tragedies. It is precisely what
22Hitler does not want. He is now fighting a desperate war
23on the Eastern Front, things are turning nasty, the rains
24have begun, the frost is setting in, and here is this evil
25little man in Berlin who is causing him totally needless
26problems, and Hitler saying, "By all means go ahead with

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 1your doktriner programmes but stop causing me
 2difficulties". And this is the meaning of that sentence.
 3Goebbels has written it down in the diary and you have to
 4refilter it back into the correct sense because, you
 5remember, it has been given negative spin by Goebbels and
 6you have to give it the right spin again.
 7     Goebbels, remember, is an arch liar. He is a
 8minister of propaganda. The diaries show this again and
 9again -- an extremely dangerous weapon to use.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is always telling the truth when he says something
11which in your mind is favourable to him, but whenever he
12says anything which is unfavourable to Hitler, he in your
13mind is a liar and, therefore, you feel justified in
14obliterating that from the text of your books, do you not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I do not want to labour the point, but I am
16sure you are familiar with witnesses and you know how to
17sort out the evidence they provide which is evidence in
18their own self-interest and evidence against their
19self-interest. If you apply that kind of criterion to the
20statements and diaries -- for example, what he writes
21about himself, you have to be mistrustful about, even when
22he writes about Hitler you have to be mistrustful because
23there is the element of the hero worship; but, on the
24other hand, what he writes about two or three, C or D,
25shall we say, in the alphabet, persons is more likely to
26be accurate because he would have no axe to grind one way

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 1or the other. You have to apply these kinds of filters.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving. I will put it once more in order to get
 3the reader to think that Hitler's policy towards the Jews
 4or the policy that he wanted was really quite kind,
 5gentle, much less ferocious and severe than Dr Goebbels,
 6you have actually doctored the words which Dr Goebbels
 7reports Hitler having said to him?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the essence of this quotation, Mr Rampton? The
 9essence of this quotation is not all the rest of those
10eight lines quoted by your Mr Evans. Yesterday the
11quotation to the words does not cause us unnecessary
12difficulties. That is Adolf Hitler saying to Goebbels,
13"Don't cause us unnecessary difficulties" and there is no
14way you can talk yourself out of that particular
15quotation, Mr Rampton.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We can echo that with what General Bruns reported and what
17Wisliceny reported. "Do not let us make a stink about it,
18but let us be very energetic in this persecution, discreet
19cautious, careful, concealed"?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, no doubt you will advance documents and lead
21evidence in that direction, but those very words, Adolf
22Hitler, quoted even by the victim himself, Goebbels
23himself, at whom the criticism is being directed, saying,
24"Do not cause us unnecessary difficulties". There is no
25way that your Mr Evans or you yourself, Mr Rampton, can
26talk yourself out of those five words. Whatever else you

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 1want to say about the rest of that quotation and what use
 2is made of it mind. Do you want me to have two or three
 3times as much quoted from the diary? If I did that, the
 4book would have been 2,000 pages long.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you not see a difference between "unnecessary" and
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     No, not in burden, not in weight, not in thrust, not in
 8push, not in emphasis.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "An energetic policy will cause some difficulties, but let
10us do it in a way that does not cause difficulties which
11are not necessary to the carrying out of the energetic
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the energetic policy, of course, we have accepted;
14people were being roused in the middle of the night by the
15Gestapo and given half an hour to pack their goods and
16packed on trains to Riga and Minsk. That is an energetic
17policy and there is no denial of that in this book.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, I want to, if I may, go back to these table talks?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler is saying, "For God's sake, do not take it too
20far. You are causing us a problem.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     For which you will still need Professor Evans in a
22moment. Am I right that you gave us -- I am not going to
23go to the transcript; it is too time consuming -- the
24impression -- you will tell me if I am wrong -- yesterday
25that these table talks were little private gatherings
26between often, not always of course, Hitler and, say,

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