Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 187

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you please turn to page 379?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     A vivid description of the Holocaust, if I may say so.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pardon?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     A vivid description of the Holocaust, if I may say so.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What is that?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     On page 379.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is as may be.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You say "that is as may be", but that is what this trial
 9is about, Mr Rampton.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you will have plenty of opportunity when this
11case is at an end or before if you want to re-examine
12yourself -- do you understand what that means? Do you
13understand that means? At the end of the
14cross-examination you have a chance to go back to
15questions that I have asked you by reference to the
16transcript and give further evidence?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Notwithstanding what you say, Mr Rampton, I think it is
18helpful that I remind the court that this case is about
19Holocaust denials, and there is on this page you intend to
20quote from a vivid description of the Holocaust in action.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This last three or four minutes has been a
22complete waste of time. I know what the case is about, so
23let us get on.
24 MR RAMPTON:     You write in the middle paragraph of that page, a
25short little paragraph, "The article", that is Goebbels'
26article in Das Reich on 16th November 1941, "displayed a

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 1far more uncompromising face than Hitler's towards the
 2Jews". Then can I understand, you are going to back that
 3up in the next sentence. You explained how you work
 4yesterday, did you not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I explained how I work?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. You put in ----
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is the topic sentence.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Topic sentence, so the topic is ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a good example of a topic sentence.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The topic is now a comparison between the anti-Semitic
11faces of Hitler and Goebbels, is it not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Between the evil genius, Dr Goebbels, and Adolf Hitler who
13has been caused immense difficulties by this kind of
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now you are going to explain why it is that Hitler's face
16was far less uncompromising than Goebbels', are you not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what that sentence says.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then we get this evidence, as it were, for your first
19sentence in the next sentence: "When the Fuhrer came to
20Berlin for Luftwaffe General Ernst Udet's funeral, he
21again instructed Goebbels to pursue a policy against the
22Jews that does not cause us endless difficulties and told
23him to go easy on mixed marriages in the future."
24     So, as you have written it, the reader would be
25inclined to agree with you, would he not, Mr Irving, that
26Hitler's face was less uncompromising than Goebbels',

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 1would he not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now can you turn, please, to page 645 ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just doing it at this moment.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- where we find footnote 39?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Obviously, a reference to the Gottschalt tragedy. That
 8must be something to do with Ernst Udet, I dare say?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I will explain it, if you wish.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I do not.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is important in this context.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is important in this context?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But if you do not wish me to explain it, I will not.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you wish to explain it, better get it over now.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Gottschalt was a German actor who was married to a
16Jewish wife. Goebbels being in charge of the German film
17industry had demanded that Mr Gottschalt divorce his wife,
18because otherwise he would get no more roles in Berlin.
19The actor had refused to divorce his wife because he loved
20her and, instead, the whole family committed suicide.
21That is the Gottschalt tragedy that I have described in
22this book, Mr Rampton, and you know it.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know it actually. It is very interesting, but
24I do not understand what it has to do with an answer to my
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Because it was typical of the tragedies that were being

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 1caused by the evil genius, Dr Goebbels, in his ^^ doktrene
 2insistence on the execution of these anti-Jewish measures.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we are sliding away, are we not, from
 4is what is going to be put.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I am completely baffled why it is obvious that
 6that diary entry is a reference to the Gottschalt
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Because the previous diary has been full of the Gottschalt
 9tragedy and we happen to know what happened to Mr
10Gottschalt and his family.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Shall we have a look see what the "evil genius
12Dr Goebbels" actually wrote in his diary. Keep what you
13said he wrote open, if you please, and turn to page 338 of
14Professor Evans' report. I remind you you wrote only
15this: "The Fuhrer again instructed Goebbels to pursue a
16policy against the Jews 'that does not cause us endless
17difficulties' and told him to go easy on mixed marriages
18in the future."
19     Now, please, look at paragraph 1 under (D) in
20brackets on page 338 of Professor Evans' report. I read
21the English first:
22     "The Fuhrer also completely agrees with my views
23with reference to the Jewish question." According to
24Dr Goebbels, there was no water between them in relation
25to how the Jews should be treated.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I put my comment on that in my foot note saying, well,

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 1clearly there was because here is Hitler saying, "Do not
 2keep causing me problems".
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us see what he reports Hitler as actually having
 5     "He", the Fuhrer, that is, "wants an energetic
 6policy against the Jews which, however, does not cause us
 7unnecessary difficulties". Three things about that,
 8Mr Irving. The word "energetic" has been omitted by you.
 9You have omitted the word "however", "alladings" in
10German, and you have mistranslated "unnecessary",
11"unnotige", as "endless"?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     The latter one I accept.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where is the ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     But that is not -- that does not really seriously change
15the burden of what I have said.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have altered the whole sense of that sentence, have
17you not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     May I just comment? The word "alladings" is a much
19stronger form of "however". The normal word for "however"
20is "aber". "Alladings" is a much stronger word than
21"however". It implies a much stronger contrast.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where is the word "enagische" in your translation?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not omitted that from the quoted passage.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, you have just ignored it.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     No. On the contrary, Mr Rampton, you are not obliged to
26put in every single word from a sentence unless you put it

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