Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition
Pages 171 - 175 of 187
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1 A. [Mr Irving] Or in Bern, one or the other, yes. He was a young man
2with contacts inside Nazi Germany.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we, please, start at the top of page 142. It is your
4position, is it not, or has been at any rate, that the gas
5chambers were a very cleaver piece of propaganda that we
6British very cunningly connived at and contrived during
7World War II, is that right?
8 A. [Mr Irving] I do not think I would use child adjectives like "clever
9and cunningly connived".
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Look at the bottom of page 141 of the Evans' report.
11 A. [Mr Irving] There is a great deal of evidence that the British
12propaganda agents is propagated in the gas chamber motive,
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] This is taken from an interview given by you to This Week
15on 28th November 1991.
16 A. [Mr Irving] In the broadcast of Thomas Mann but I will come to that in
17due course. Thomas Mann operated for the British and
18American Intelligence Agencies.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Stripping out "clever and cunning" for the
20sake of argument, do you contend, Mr Irving, that gas
21chambers at Auschwitz were an invention by British
22Intelligence during the war?
23 A. [Mr Irving] British Intelligence broadcast repeatedly through the BBC
24and through other information channels into Nazi Germany
25information about gas chambers in occupied Nazi, Nazi
26occupied Europe at a time when they were not in
1operation. In other words, the information was premature
2information, shall we say.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, premature begs the question rather, does it not?
4 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, in other words the information came forward.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Are you suggesting it was an invention?
6 A. [Mr Irving] To degree the it must have been an invention because at
7the time the British propaganda was talking of them they
8did not exist.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] So it was an invention by British propaganda?
10 A. [Mr Irving] British propaganda invented the story of the gas chambers
11or invented stories of gas chambers which were broadcast
12into Nazis Germany during the war years. There is any
13amount of evidence of this in the BBC monitoring reports,
14in the German radio monitoring reports, in the memoirs of
15people like Thomas Mann, the famous German novelist, who
16worked for British propaganda agencies in their private
17diaries and so on.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, well, I am sure it was broadcast; it is a question of
19whether it was an invention by the British propaganda
21 A. [Mr Irving] Well, if the Allies, as we know from the Foreign Office
22files, had no knowledge of any gas chambers, then,
23clearly, it was an invention.
24 MR RAMPTON: I wonder about that. Can you just look at the
25middle of page 143? We may have to come back in due
26course to what you said about this, but that is a
1different question. Paragraph 5. Professor Evans has
2recited your rather complicated account of this in your
3forthcoming Churchill book. Then he says: "What is the
4real documentary evidence for this account? Gerhard
5Riegner was director of the Geneva Office of the World
6Jewish Congress from 1939 until 1945. On 8th August 1942
7Riegner handed an identical telegram to Howard Etling,
8American Vice-Counsel in Geneva, and to HB Livingston, the
9British Consul. Riegner asked that a telegram be conveyed
10to the World Jewish Congress leaders in London (Sydney
11Silverman, MP) and New York (Rabbi Steven Wise). The
13 'Received alarming report stating that, in the
14Fuhrer's Headquarters, a plan has been discussed, and is
15under consideration, according to which all Jews in
16countries occupied or controlled by Germany numbering 3
17and-a-half to 4 million, should, after deportation and
18concentration in the East, be at one blow exterminated, in
19order to resolve, once and for all the Jewish question'."
20 Then there is a reference to a document which
21I think I can show you in a moment.
22 Then Professor Evans goes on: "Although the
23message the put the as 'under consideration', there was an
24additional detail: 'Ways of execution are still being
25discussed, including the use of prussic acid'. Riegner
26himself said, 'We transmit this information with all the
1necessary reservation as exactitude cannot be confirmed by
2us'. But he added, 'Our informant is reported to have
3close connections with the highest German authorities, and
4his reports are generally reliable'".
5 That should be footnote 90 in this part of
6Professor Evans' report.
7 A. [Mr Irving] The actual document is in my discovery, of course -- the
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am sorry, my Lord. The way that the Evans' documents
10have been indexed makes them rather difficult to find.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do we need the original for this purpose?
12 MR RAMPTON: Well, if it has come from Mr Irving's
13discovery, I think we do not actually because he would be
14well familiar with it.
15 A. [Mr Irving] I am very familiar indeed with the document and with the
16associated minutes by the Foreign Office officials on it.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is an accurate account, is it, in Professor Evans'
18report of what the telegram says?
19 A. [Mr Irving] Those three lines are accurately transcribed from the
20telegram, to the best of my recollection.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] So there are four lines in the body of paragraph 5 and
22then there are some further references to things like
23prussic acid in paragraph 6?
24 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but, of course, the actual telegram is longer than
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
1 A. [Mr Irving] We know a great deal also about the origins of the
2telegram, whether this informant existed, and so on.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] I can see that it is much longer; I am certainly not going
4to bend the court's ear by reading it out.
5 A. [Mr Irving] What is significant, of course, is the associated
6memoranda on the Foreign Office file, the treating of its
7credibility and of what to do with it, and so on.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, sure, but if this is the source of the information --
9call it that, no more -- it is hardly an invention of
10British propaganda, is it?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Which information?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] This information here, in the Evans' report. If Riegner
13is the source of the information ----
14 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- then it is not an invention of British propaganda, is
17 A. [Mr Irving] Not at this stage, no, but, of course, there had been
18references by British propaganda to alleged hydrogen
19and cyanide gas chambers before this August 1942 telegram.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Let me take it slowly. If Riegner's information is not
21something that he has been put up to by British
23 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- true, you may say, though, I am not going accept it,
25that the British propaganda then built on that idea, maybe
26you do say that, maybe you do not, I do not know, but the
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