Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 187

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    No, but then he would have been a hypocrite if he had
 1Evans' document bundle, this is not a retype by the
 2Nuremberg people, I think, is it, Mr Irving?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is a copy of some sort of original, whether a carbon
 5or not I do not know.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It is off the microfilm number T175/54, page 620.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     331 of Evans?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     331, my Lord, no of H1(ix).
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I make a remark against myself?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am sure Mr Rampton will not want
11to ----
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Looking back at that rubber stamp, my Lord, on that
13document where there is no secret classification, it has
14in its place the two letters AR.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It also has the letters AR on the top left-hand corner at
17the beginning of the handwritten reference number.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What does that mean?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     "Aktion Reinhardt" I would suspect. I would suspect, it
20is a degree of probability that this was given a separate
21file for Aktion Reinhardt.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But not Geheim?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     But not Geheim. It is a reasonable presumption, although
24it may be held against me.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Tell me this. I think that is an English word.
26You see the bottom of 331?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The bottom left-hand corner in a box somebody has
 3written "index". That would be people at Nuremberg?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it would be me.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is you?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     All documents that passed through my possession when I was
 7writing the Hitler book went into a 20,000 card index, and
 8once it had been indexed I would rubber stamp the index so
 9that I did not index it again.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. The reference to "the chosen people" is in the
11fifth line, is it not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     "For your letter of July 28th 1942 I thank you, also in
13the name of the Reichsfuhrer SS, most heartfelt. With
14particular joy I have taken cognisance of your information
15that for 14 days now already every day one train with
165,000 members of the chosen people are going to Treblinka,
17and that in this way we are being put in the position that
18we can accelerate the speed of this population movement."
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it probably is really more selective
20than "chosen", is it not? Is it not just saying these are
21people who have been selected for the transport?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, that is the German for "chosen".
23 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I think it is a sarcastic reference to,
24I would guess.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the correct German for "the chosen people".
26 MR RAMPTON:     "For the chosen people". Mr Irving actually put

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 1it in his book in that form, did you not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     As an accurate translation, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why did it cause him, Mr Irving, why did it cause him,
 4Wolff, especial joy?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sure that is just a way of dictating letters. Wolff
 6in particular is an SS Officer.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "A rabid anti-Semite is very pleased to be told that 5,000
 8a day are going off to be massacred." Surely that is the
 9natural interpretation?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     57,000 are getting their comeuppance, I suppose that is
11the way he is looking at it, as a good Nazi.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Comeuppance" meaning?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, just they are meeting their well-deserved fait,
14whatever it is. They are not specific.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Death?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Death?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     He does not actually say it, my Lord.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is what he means?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am not going to pin Karl Wolff down on this on
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, but you are an historian looking at the document,
23Mr Rampton has put a perfectly fair question to you, is he
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot say from this document, my Lord, and I do not
26think anybody could just looking at this document

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 1in vacuo. In hindsight we can say that they were going to
 2that place, they never turned up again, obviously
 3something ugly happened to them.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Karl Wolff, who I have to correct you I think
 5about in a moment, but never mind, Karl Wolff on receipt
 6of Ganzenmuller's information is overcome with joy that
 7these 5,000 a day are going to their deaths, is he not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     He does not say that, but that may very well be the reason
 9why. I accept there is the degree of probability. That
10may be the reason why.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is my second point. I am told, I am not an
12historian, that Wolff was not simply a visitor or even a
13frequent visitor to Hitler's headquarters, but was
14Himmler's liaison officer at Hitler's headquarters?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     For a time he may have been, but I am not sure whether it
16was at this time.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is a fair point. I will accept that.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     He fell out of favour after contracting an unsuitable
19marriage and for a long time he was out of favour.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But if he is Himmler's liaison officer at the Fuhrer
21headquarters, whether it is in Berlin or in East Prussia,
22wherever it might be, his formal role is to pass
23information and instructions backwards and forwards ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     As a conduit.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- between Himmler and Hitler, is it not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     He would have acted as a conduit between the two.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A conduit pipe. So if Hitler was at all interested in
 2reports of what was going on in the East, he could expect
 3to get them for Wolff, could he not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. This letter is, of course, actually written from the
 5Fuhrer's headquarters.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the address at the top.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I quite agree with you. In case you should have missed
 9the point, it does not say, "and I have brought your glad
10tidings to the Fuhrer today at lunch and we all had a
11glass of champagne"?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I treated the document responsibly. I gave you
13the full text of it or whatever was relevant in my books,
14and once again I leave the readers to draw their own
15conclusions. I may say that your Lordship and yourself
16have also drawn the right conclusions from this document
17or the appropriate conclusions.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you please turn, Mr Irving, to page 143 of Evans'
19report, paragraph 5, no, I had better start actually a bit
20earlier. This is all, my Lord, embedded in a discussion
21of the suggestion that the gas chambers were an invention
22of British propaganda. Mr Irving, I am right, am I not
23that, Riegner was some kind of figure in the Jewish
24community in the West?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     In Switzerland.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In Geneva.

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