Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 187

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 1     "The trains deporting the Jews from Galicia did
 2indeed go to Belzec as can be seen in the report of
 3Reserve Lieutenant Westermann of the 7th company of Police
 4Regiment 24, whose men helped round up the Jews in
 5Kolomyja", which is, I can tell, you southeast of Lavof,
 6in other words further East than Lemberg, "and nearby
 7towns and then guarded two transports to Belzec on
 8September 7th and 10th 1942. The first contained 4,769
 9Jews in 50 train cars and went without incident. The
10second involved 8,205 Jews. Many had been held for days
11without food and force-marched 35-50 kilometers to the
12train in blistering heat. They were then packed into
13train cars, in many cases 180 to 200 per car, virtually
14without ventilation. As Lieutenant Westermann concluded,
15'The ever greater panic spreading among the Jews due to
16the great heat, overloading of the train cars and stink of
17the dead when unloading the train cars, some 2,000 Jews
18were found dead in the train made the transport almost
19unworkable.' Nevertheless, the train that left Kolomyja at
208.50 p.m. on September 10th finally crawled into Belzec at
216.45 on September 11th".
22     So these figures quoted by Ganzenmuller's
23subordinate of 5,000 Jews per train ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     They are feasible, yes, on the basis of this evidence.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are feasible?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If that were so, we are talking about even greater
 2numbers, are we not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     In what respect greater numbers?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, greater numbers than I had originally supposed.
 5I mean we are originally talking about by the end of the
 61943 or whenever it was that these camps were disbanded,
 7well over a million people I would guess.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     May I just remark for the record that of course this
 9Westermann document I have not seen and never had when
10I was writing my books.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but in a way that is not a particular
12pertinent observation, because we are really at the moment
13looking at the scale of the operation.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, you did suggest that I should make that quite
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Fair enough and it is helpful for you to do so, but the
17criticism is not of the way in which you have dealt with
18these matters in your books, if you follow me?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     We are just trying to get the picture.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Can you turn, while we have it open, to page 46 of
21Professor Browning's report, please?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I had pointed out to you that trains apparently went, we
24saw it again there, westwards from Galicia to Belzec, and
25then you see at the top of page 46 of Professor Browning's
26report: "Surviving fragmentary train schedules also show

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 1that Jews were deported from northern Lublin district,
 2Radom district, and the Bialystok district to Treblinka as
 3well. The deportations from Bialystok, a district East of
 4Treblinka, are of special significance for two reasons.
 5First, these deportations from Bialystok make clear that
 6Treblinka was not a transit camp for the expulsion of Jews
 7eastwards from the General Government. Rather the tiny
 8village of Treblinka, like Belzec, was a point at which
 9transports of Jews converged from East and West.
10     "Moreover, the fate of the Bialystok Jews in
11the fall of 1942 was clearly stated in Himmler's report to
12Hitler of December 31st 1942", that is either that or
1329th, it is report No. 51, "the Jews of Bialystok were
14among the 363,211 Jews executed."
15 A. [Mr Irving]     There I would have to comment of course that that line
16I would not agree there is any connection, because the
17363,000, that report, the Himmler report, is referring
18only to events within that region and not events within
19the General Government.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You mean that is Jews killed at or near Bialystok and its
21area, not Jews transported?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Transported somewhere else out of the region and dealt
23with somewhere else.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You might be right about that. You can take that up with
25Professor Browning.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is nit-picking.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. It may be a fair point and you can take it up with
 2him. It matters not the least to me. The point about
 3this is, we have another example, have we not, of Jews
 4being transported from the East to the West?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To a different camp, Treblinka, the one in the North?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Where we do not know for certain what happens to them.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but these do not look very much like transit camps, do
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know. Let us just leap ahead a bit and say
11suppose these enormous numbers of Jews had been liquidated
12in some way, we come up against that familiar word
13"logistics", what happened to the remains?
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I suppose what happened to the remains, upwards of
15whatever I do not know ----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     We have to think this right through, you see.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is partly a question of evidence and it is partly a
18question of constructive thinking. It could be that many
19of them were burnt, the corpses I mean. There is some
20evidence of that, is there not? It may be that many of
21them were buried. There is also some evidence of that
22too, is there not, I mean contemporary evidence?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is as much as we can say.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I agree.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I take that kind of answer, that is as much as we can say,
26one stage further back in the sequence to say, this is as

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 1much as we can say: They went there where they then
 2vanished from our general sight.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought we had reached the point where we
 4were agreed that it does not really, in a sense, matter
 5terribly much exactly how many, but huge numbers ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Huge numbers were killed.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- were killed in one way or another. In a sense, the
 8Court's problem is only a problem if you are disputing the
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Precisely, my Lord. The logistical problem is one that we
11will keep on coming up against. It is a distasteful
12subject but one you cannot overlook.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Just for completeness and for his Lordship's note,
14in effect so his Lordship really knows where to find it,
15if you turn over the page two pages from Ganzenmuller ----
16 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, if I could just interrupt, it is one reason why
17I was entitled to extrapolate, if you remember, from
18Auschwitz to the other two camps, and we have precisely
19those logistical reasons which make it improbable that
20they were factories of death.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship will see Wolff's nauseating reply,
22if I can call it that ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Which he never expected one day to have read out in open
24court, I am sure.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but then he would have been a hypocrite if he had
26edited it, would he not? On page 331 at the bottom of the

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