Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 187

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    Then we obviously do need to have an argument
 1about this, because I have, to an extent anyway,
 2misunderstood the position. Let us carry on. Would you
 3like to come back?
 4 <Mr David Irving, recalled.
 5<Cross-Examined by Mr Rampton QC.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I did produce also the Himmler diary so that you
 7could see the actual page I worked from, if you wish to
 8see the quality of the photocopy.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it carry the matter much further?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Only if your Lordship intends to attach much weight to
11Mr Rampton's suggestion that I deliberately and wilfully
12misread that word.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not saying I am not so, if you want me
14to have a look at it, I will. I doubt whether it will be
15significantly different from the photocopy I have in the
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we will leave it.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, you have left behind, I am sorry, your
19little clip that you brought with you this morning.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Somebody will give it to you. The only page I am
22interested in at the present is page 3.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 3, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have only two questions, three questions possibly. Did
25any such cases occur in practice?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     We have a document which we can produce to the court

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 1showing that the Germans were instructed actually to build
 2special camps for these special category -- I am sorry,
 3this is not an answer to that particular question. Were
 4any actually sold?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     No, not to my knowledge.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know what sort of cases were envisaged?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Not on the basis of this document which I produced, no.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know what the scale of this proposal was meant to
11 A. [Mr Irving]     This document does not show that.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. You do not know from extraneous sources the answers
13to any of my questions?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     The answer is?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Those two last two questions: Do you know not the answer
16from other evidence?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Not that I wish to repeat just from memory, which may be
18uncertain on oath.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much. Now I would like to return, if
20I may, to something that cropped up yesterday. It is in
21fact the only topic that cropped up yesterday that I am
22going to return to, save for continuing with the table
23talk but that is not really a repetition. Could you,
24please, be given Hitler's War 1977, the first volume. My
25Lord that is D 1 (i).
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it here.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you please turn to page 341?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The left hand page that is. Here again you are purporting
 4to give a translation of the table talk of 25th October
 51941, are you not, in the second paragraph?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     On the right hand page, you mean?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, 331?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, 331.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In my copy it is the left hand page.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Odd numbers are always right hand pages in books.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That may be so. Here you purport, do you not, to give a
12translation of the table talk of 25th October 1941. Is
13that right?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I have just reproduced the remarks noted by the adjutant,
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Take it slowly. The answer to my question I think is yes,
17is it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I cannot see the word "translation" in that paragraph.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have put it in quotes in English. The quotes start at
20"from the rostrum" and end at "terror is a salutary
21thing", do they not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but the word "translation" does not occur there. You
23are saying that I am purporting that this is a
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It obviously is. Let us move on.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I apprehend that he intends to attach importance to the

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 1word "translation". This is why.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us wait and see.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That version, let us call it, was -- for this
 4fact on its own I make no criticism -- taken straight
 5from the Weidenfeld and Nicholson?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It was an accurate transcript of the original official,
 7shall we say, translation of the Hitler's table talk that
 8I produced to his Lordship this morning.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At that date you did not have the Genoud original?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     In 1977 nobody had them except Mr Genoud.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You got it very shortly after that, did you not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     About 1982, if I remember correctly.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think it was earlier, but it does not really matter.
14The last sentence in the quotes reads: "Terror is a
15salutary thing".
16 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When you came to write about this in the 1991 edition, as
18you confirmed yesterday, you did at that date have the
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is also right, is it not, that you omitted the single
22sentence "terror is a salutary thing"?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, because I discovered that it was not in the original
24German, so I quite properly cut it out.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you maintain, do you, still -- I am not going over
26old ground, I just want to be sure that I have understood

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 1what your case is -- that, save for that sentence, it is
 2an accurate account of what was reported to have been said
 3by Hitler?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Had I made a version account from the German original,
 5starting from scratch, I would have translated it
 6differently. As I had an existing English translation,
 7rather than rework it into a different form, then
 8I preferred to leave it as it was, rather than incur the
 9wrath of historians who were familiar only at that time
10with the English text. Professor Martin Bourchard, in his
11very famous attack on my book, had commented extensively
12on the fact that my translations of documents differed
13from the official English versions, I wanted to avoid that
14kind of ill informed attack.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could Mr Irving please be given file D3 (i)? Would you
16turn, please, to tab 20? Does your Lordship have that?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
18 MR RAMPTON:     At tab 20 this is a document headed On
19Contemporary History and Historiography. I think it comes
20from the journal of the International Revisionists body,
21and the sub-heading is "David Irving, remarks delivered at
22the 1983 International Revisionists Conference". Do you
23recognize it, Mr Irving?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is this one of those things that you approve before it is
26printed for publication?

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