Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 187

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    Yes, he is W. "Dear Comrade, Ganzenmuller", and again this
 1security classifications on their documents.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But there is nothing compromising, as I say, on the face
 3of either of these documents. It is just trans going to
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Even documents that were written as euphemisms had the
 6security classification put on them which was rather
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am puzzled by that. I am puzzled for two
 9reasons, Mr Irving. The first document is not an
10original, I think. It is a Nuremberg reprint, is it not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a transcript, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But that does not tell us anything about what its original
13classification might be?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It does, if you excuse me, it has the German
15classification on it.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     About the tenth, Geheim, G-E-H-E-I-M, in the centre.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does that mean?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Secret.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, secret?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But that is a low security classification,
23that is what Mr Irving has just said.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The only one lower than that was "vertraulich" which means
25confidential. Before that there are three or four
26successive ranks. You have Geheimreichs,

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 1Geheimschetaffe(?) and (?)offizier which means only an
 2officer can carry it.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very learned, Mr Irving, and it is quite right you should
 4say it.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you sneering at my expertise?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am not sneering at your expertise. Actually I am
 7complaining about the way you keep making speeches in
 8answer to questions I have not asked, if you want to
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I think his Lordship has indicated in the view of the fact
11that I am a litigant in person I am allowed a little bit
12of latitude in making points which I would otherwise have
13no opportunity to make.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, but may I suggest if you are going to do that, to
15which I have no objection whatsoever, you make your
16observations to his Lordship and not to me. We are not
17having an argument. You are answering questions under
18oath. Now I am trying to find the translation of this
19document. Yes, I have found it. My Lord, it is the
20bottom of paragraph 4 of page 430 of Evans, but I dare say
21there are other versions.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 430 of?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Of Evans, my Lord.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 MR RAMPTON:     This is from Ganzenmuller whose precise position
26is what?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Secretary of State, Staff Secretare, which is the
 2Permanent Under Secretary in the Ministry of Transport.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In Berlin?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     In Berlin.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is he a senior Civil Servant?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     A very senior Civil Servant.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A very senior Civil Servant. He writes to Wolff?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Karl Wolff was the personal adjutant of Heydrich Himmler.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and it was Karl Wolff who was quite often, am
10I wrong, tell me if I am, as it were, seconded by Himmler
11to Hitler, is that right, or have I got that wrong?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It was a floating kind of relationship. Karl Wolff was
13very close to Hitler. He fell out over a marital dispute
14I think, a matrimonial dispute, but actually his position
15was Chief Adjutant of Heydrich Himmler. He was never on
16Hitler's staff. He was on Himmler's staff.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. What I am driving at is obvious I think, Mr Irving.
18Karl Wolff was in a position if Adolf Hitler should say to
19him one day, say late August or September or July 1942,,
20"How is it going in the East?", Wolff is in a position to
21tell him?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Undoubtedly, yes. He would have told him about these
23train loads of Jews being shipped off to Treblinka.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can imagine the conversation. This is pure fancy on
25my part of course. "Karl, how is it going in the East?
26Well, we've good news from Ganzenmuller that they're able

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 1to shift about 35,000 of the chosen people a week to these
 2camps in the East." That is all, as simple as that.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Hitler of course never used deprecatory phrases like
 4"the chosen people".
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. He used nice complimentary phrases like "parasites"
 6and "bacilli", did he not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right. But of course this is just your
 8imagination which has no evidentiary value whatsoever in
 9this action.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, of course not, but Wolff was in a position, what I am
11saying is Wolff was close to Hitler, close to the thrown,
12was he not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     He was close to Himmler's thrown. He was on Himmler's
14personal staff.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And Hitler's too. You just old us he was close to Hitler?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I made it quite specific. He was on Himmler's staff, not
17on Hitler's staff, but he was a frequent visitor to
18Hitler's headquarters.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you look at this letter and tell us what it says,
20please. It says something about a telephone call on 16th
21July, does it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Which letter are we talking about?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This one from Ganzenmuller to Wolff.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     "Referring to our telephone conversation of July 16th 1942
25I inform you of the following report from my general
26direction of the Eastern Railroads in Krakow for your own

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 1personal information."
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then he quotes the report, does he?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Then he quotes the report: "Since July 27th a daily train
 4load of 5,000 Jews, each is travelling from Walsall via
 5Malkenia to Treblinka, in addition to which two are
 6running each week, a train of 5,000 Jews will run each
 7week from Eprzemysl to Belzec."
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you wish me to continue?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I do not. I am just wondering whether I was right to
11agree with you that 5,000 per train was too many.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     If they were in goods trucks, as that September document
13indicates they have been planning, then they may possibly
14have packed that many in.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you still got Professor Brownings' report there?
16This is inevitable, I am afraid, in a case like this.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 430, is it?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, page 44 of Professor Browning.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am constantly marvelling at your cross-referencing.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It breaks down all too often. Page 44, paragraph 5.3.11,
21I will read it. We will look at the documents if you
22insist, but I do not believe it is necessary:
23     "The trains deporting Jews from Galicia". What
24is the matter?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it, 44. Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     5.3.11, MR IRVING:

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