Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 187

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Two trains per day from the district of Walsall to
 2Treblinka; one train per day from the district of Random
 3to Treblinka; one train per day from the district of
 4Krakow to Belzec, and one train per day from the district
 5of Lemberg or the Wolff to Belzec.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That makes a total, I think I am right, of 5,000 a day?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     That would be approximately 5,000.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you for me, please, just complete the sentence because
 9it was not, after Lemberg and then the numbers there is
10some more, is there not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     "Could be conducted".
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is in the subjunctive. "Waren" with the 200 G-wagen,
14which are presumably goods trucks, "which have already
15been placed at our disposal for this purpose by the
16headquarters of the Krakow Railways, as far as this can be
17carried out or is feasible".
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much. So they are reporting, what, a
19proposal or an event or series of events?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It is an estimate of what we can do with the transport
21capacity placed at our disposal.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Available rolling stock, they can do 5,000 a day to two of
23these three places in the East, except that the one train
24a day from Lemberg which, as you say, is what I call
25"Lavof" which is in what is now the Ukraine and then was
26Galicia, is going eastwards if it is going to Belzec, is

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 1it not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     One train a day is going from Lemberg to Belzec that is on
 3the frontier, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is going eastwards. It is crossing ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- from Galicia westwards into the General Government?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It is right on the Eastern border of the General
 8Government, about two kilometres from the edge.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So the Jews of Lemberg, to give it its German name, are
10being transported eastwards to Belzec?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     To Belzec two kilometres from the border, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. No sense then in which Belzec can be regarded as a
13transit camp, is there, for movement further eastwards?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     These destinations that are in this document which I am
15seeing for the first time, Treblinka, Belzec, they are all
16on the border, what I might say the exit door, of the
17General Government.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is like standing something next to the door where they
20are robbed. Everything is taken off them by Operation
21Reinhardt. Then we do not know, on the basis of this
22document, what happened to them after that.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Trains converge on Belzec containing Jews in vast numbers,
24frankly, from East and West. Belzec most likely,
25Mr Irving, is in any sense of the word a terminus, is it

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Did you say they are coming from East and West?
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. If you look down what is proposed next, the line is
 3bust at the moment, they are going to start up in
 4November, then trains are going to go from Lublin to
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Where is that?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, read the next bit then.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     After the restoration of the railway line from Lublin to
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Probably on about 1st November.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     "The" other urgent transports will also be, we can also
14carry out the other urgent transports, namely one train
15per day from Radom to Sobibor; one train per day from
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Lublin North.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Lublin North to Belzec and one train per day from Lublin
19centre to Sobibor.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So once that is in operation, which is in about a month's
21time, five weeks time, Belzec will be receiving Jews both
22from the West?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     From Lublin.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From Lublin and from the East, Lavof?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Lemberg?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry about this, Mr Irving, but sometimes junior
 3counsel and experts produce aid in a case like this.
 4H1(ix) I think you may already have, unless his Lordship's
 5advice about housekeeping has been rigorously obeyed. My
 6Lord, H1(ix), page 329.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is one of the relevant documents. It is still
 9only a transcript, but it is it is more useful.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What tab is it?
11 MR RAMPTON:     329, my Lord. You will find the translations, my
12Lord, at pages 429 to 30 of Evans.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     If your Lordship has the document, I draw attention only
14to the security classification which is "Geheim" on page
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do I get what the security
17classification is?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     On about the tenth line, G-E-H-E-I-M.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is secret?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is just the lowest security classification there
21is, apart from "vertraulich" which is confidential,
22whereas everything to do with the killing operations, at
23any rate anything that could be explicitly recognized as
24killing operations, was a much higher classification.
25I shall be making that point once or twice.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But against that this is not in a sense a compromising

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 1document on its face. It is simply saying these trains
 2are going to Treblinka?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree, my Lord, but taken in conjunction with the other
 4document in this pair where Wolff writes back saying, you
 5remember, "It's a good thing that 5,000, a chosen few, per
 6day are going that way." I do not know if the reply is
 7also there, is it? Here is Wolff replying in the next
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     He is W, is he?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, he is W. "Dear Comrade, Ganzenmuller", and again this
11document has no classification at all. This is from my
12own files, my Lord. This is actually from Himmler's
13papers and it has no classification rating at all. If you
14look at the square box, the rubber stamp at the top
15right-hand corner, my Lord, you will have see on that
16little bundle I have gave you this morning, I had printed
17in red there was one such little bundle translated into
18English and that had the security classification on it.
19The third line of that box where it says "actung nummer"
20which would be file number, would have afterwards G-E-H
21oblique stroke, and then they would write in handwriting
22the secret file number, if this was a classified
23document. So neither of these two correspondents,
24Ganzenmuller or Wolff, considered this matter they were
25talking about to be secret, and I shall be leading
26evidence, my Lord, that the SS were very pernickety about

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