Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition
Pages 146 - 150 of 187
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1 A. [Mr Irving] Large numbers, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] We will look at what the position was in ----
3 A. [Mr Irving] They are going via Malinka to Treblinka I think.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, all that, in enormous numbers. If you think about
5it, 5,000 Jews a day is 35,000 Jews a week?
6 A. [Mr Irving] That would be five train loads.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. What?
8 A. [Mr Irving] That would have been five train loads per day.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Exactly. I am comfortable without having just a quick
10look at the document.
11 A. [Mr Irving] It might be useful just to have a look at the documents to
12see what the security classification was.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] I must say I rather agree. We will look at two documents,
14if you do not mind. Ganzenmuller to Wolff on 29th July
151942, it is either 28th or 29th, anyhow I need a copy of
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it H4(ii)?
18 MR RAMPTON: It might be.
19 A. [Mr Irving] The originals were in my discovery of course.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we not operate off Professor Browning's.
21 MR RAMPTON: I do not know where that is.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 45.
23 MR RAMPTON: There is no copy, that is the trouble.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can do it off the report, can we not?
26 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, my Lord, where did your Lordship say?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 45. I think that is probably all you
2really need. I cannot believe the context is going to
3make much difference.
4 MR RAMPTON: No, the context probably is not.
5 "Since July 22nd one train with 5,000 Jews
6departs daily via Malinka to Treblinka. Moreover, twice
7per week a train with 5,000 Jews departs", a Polish word
8for Belzec. So that is, is it not, 35,000 a week from,
9I think that is actually from Walsall?
10 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, my only little quibble is with the figures. I accept
11the documents are completely authentic, but you could not
12get 5,000 people into one train, not even with a shoe
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] I agree. That is why I think the figure is exaggerated.
15 A. [Mr Irving] There is a little bit of bragging going on here.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, probably.
17 A. [Mr Irving] The normal figure is about 1,000 people per train and this
18is, certainly at this time, I mean later on in 1944 when
19they used more brutal methods I think they packed them
20into more unorthodox transport.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Perhaps, Mr Irving, we do better to look at a summary
22which was made in Berlin at the end of September 1942, and
23you may agree these figures are more reliable. It is page
2447, my Lord, of Professor Browning and it is note 121,
25which is H3(ii), tab 13 I am told. I apologise to your
26Lordship for that slight delay, but when the files are
1open I cannot tell what they are. It is first document
2behind tab 13.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
4 MR RAMPTON: We looked at this once before I think, Mr Irving.
5 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] We have to at the moment take it from Professor Browning
7that it is what he says it is.
8 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] He says it is a conference in Berlin on 26th and 28th
10September 1992. What his basis for that saying is I do
11not know. He will tell us no doubt when he gets here.
12Assuming that to be right, it is telling us that there was
13discussed, one, the evacuation of 600,000 Jews from the
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of the General Government.
16 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, my Lord, yes, of the General
17Government. Then item two is the forwarding of 200,000
18Romanian Jews into the General Government.
19 A. [Mr Irving] I can see item one, the 600,000 going.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Die Verschieckung".
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Paragraph 2?
22 A. [Mr Irving] Am I looking at the Browning or at a document?
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] No, I am sorry, you should be looking at a document.
24 A. [Mr Irving] Right. Which is where.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would do a bit of housekeeping if I were
26you, Mr Irving.
1 A. [Mr Irving] Where do I find it in H3(ii)?
2 MR RAMPTON: You will find it behind tab 13.
3 A. [Mr Irving] Under tab 13?
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
5 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, OK, I have it.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] You have that and I expect you recognize it?
7 A. [Mr Irving] I have never seen it before. It is pages 149 and 150 of
8some, it looks like a court document of some kind.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know.
10 A. [Mr Irving] Highly unsatisfactory of course to have a document
11presented in this form in a court transcript.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] If you dispute its reliability or its authenticity you can
13take it up with Professor Browning when he gets here.
14I have asked you to bear that in mind.
15 A. [Mr Irving] It is just a comment I make that it is unsatisfactory to
16have a document presented in this form.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Of course, but this is not an historical enquiry,
18Mr Irving. You brought this action against my clients
19asking for damages and an injunction. So we have to do
20the best we can with what we have before us. Can I just
21ask you ----
22 A. [Mr Irving] Mr Rampton, you have a very large staff of experts and
23experts' assistants and assistants to those assistants
24behind you in this very courtroom. I am acting on this
25action by myself.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, Mr Irving. Just assume for the sake of argument,
1will you, that this is both authentic and possibly, I do
2not know, reliable?
3 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] It speaks of the evacuation of 600,000 Jews of the General
6 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] It speaks also of the forwarding into the General
8Government the 200,000 Romanian Jews, does it not, the
10 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is in words, yes, "von zweihunderttausend Juden
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is the first heading I am interested in under point one
13or as to point one, urgent transports, I cannot read the
14next word, can you help me with that?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Proposed, "polkishen".
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] What does it mean?
17 A. [Mr Irving] Urgent transport proposed by the Chief of Security Police
18and by the Security Service.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is that ----
20 A. [Mr Irving] Heydrich.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- Heydrich?
22 A. [Mr Irving] No, at this time it would be Carleton Brunner. Heydrich
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] How high up is that?
25 A. [Mr Irving] Directly under Himmler.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Directly under Himmler. What he has ordered are ----
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