Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 187

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    My Lord, this is a document referred to on pages
 1Lord?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Of?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of Browning.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Of Browning. Could you turn to page 63, please?
 5I will just read out what Professor Browning says: "An
 6earlier document mentioning Einsatz Reinhard". We can
 7translate that as "Operation Reinhard", can we?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Not spelt that way though.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I am sorry you will have to look at the document in
10a moment. It dates from July 18th 1942. "It is a form on
11which the personnel specially authorized 'for the carrying
12out of the work of the Jewish resettlement within the
13framework of Operation Reinhard" by the SS and police
14leader in the Lublin district' acknowledged having been
15orientated to specific rules of secrecy by SS Amtstung
16Fuhrer Hofle on Globocnik's staff. They were forbidden to
17make any communication, verbal or in writing, concerning
18the Jewish resettlement, Juden umsiedlung, under any
19circumstances to anyone outside of Operation Reinhard.
20Moreover, there was 'an explicit prohibition against
21photography in the camps of Operation Reinhard'".
22     Would you just glance, please, or more than
23glance, at the document which is in footnote 154 in volume
24H3(ii).
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     154.
26 MR RAMPTON:     154, my Lord, behind tab 16 in H3(ii).

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     153.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     This document is the right way up. Again it looks
 3to me like a reprint?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Again it is a printed document.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What? It looks like a reproduction, this, does it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     154, document 228 you are talking about?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, document 228.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is a print.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Have you seen the original of this?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not, no.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you know of its existence?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Has Professor Browning -- I will give you a moment in a
14minute -- is my question summarized its effect correctly?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and I am familiar with the security, the secrecy
16declarations. I have seen several of them, particularly
17in connection with Auschwitz itself.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see how, at any rate, in this version ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- in July 1942, Reinhard is spelt?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, in this printed version.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In this printed version.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The spelling that you prefer, Mr Irving, has a "T" on the
25end, does it not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     You are rather presuming, but, in fact, there are disputes

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 1about how it should be spelt and perhaps I should explain
 2to his Lordship the reason for the...
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is Heydrich?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Obviously, the diminuendo is named in honour of Reinhart
 5Heydrich who had been assassinated a month earlier. But,
 6in fact, Operation Reinhard in its documentation, and I
 7can produce other documents which very much go in this
 8direction, there is an operation run by State Secretary,
 9Fritz Reinhart, of the German Ministry of Finance who is a
10leading Nazi in that ministry who was in charge of the
11expropriation and looting of stolen Jewish property. This
12was a primary concern of these SS gangsters on the Eastern
13Front to round up the Jews and rob them blind and take
14their gold and everything else. Then it want to the
15Ministry of Finance literally. It was appropriated by the
16Reich. That is how it became known as Operation Reinhart,
17but I do agree that sometimes the documents leave out the
18"T" because of confusion.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Professor Browning, Mr Irving, only a few pages on
20at page 66, at the bottom of page 66 ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- you may dispute it, but this is what he says, tells us
23that the spelling of "Operation Reinhart" with a "T"
24begins only in late 1943?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     There are documents prior to that, and only two months ago
26I was sitting in the Hoover Library in California going

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 1through a whole file on Operation Reinhart from Himmler's
 2files which details in very great degree the financial
 3expropriation that went on, the gold rings, the watches,
 4the whole of the business of recycling the stolen
 5property.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And is your thesis this then, I do not know, perhaps I had
 7better ask you an open question, what is your thesis as to
 8the nature of Operation Reinhard?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not setting up a rival thesis, Mr Rampton. I am just
10rattling slightly at yours and saying it is not quite as
11concrete and cast in stone as possibly you would like
12people to believe.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You will find when you question Professor Browning that he
14does not say either that it is certain that it is named
15after Reinhart Heydrich. All he notices is that the
16spelling undergoes a change. What he is perfectly certain
17about, and this is what matters in this case, is that it
18was a killing operation as an adjunct of which the Nazis
19stole the property of the dead people?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, without wishing to reveal too much about what
21I intend to cross-examine Professor Browning on, I can say
22I that I shall be putting to him certain documents on the
23letter head of Heinreich Himmler, the Chief of the SS,
24which in the typical German Civil Service then have the
25sub-departments and the sub-departs indicated in the
26reference number, and you come to "Verwaltung" which is

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 1administration, "Reinhard" and so on and the document is
 2purely connected with the expropriation and the stolen
 3watches and the remanufacture of the fountain pens and
 4everything else that has been stolen from the victims of
 5what they called the Holocaust. So the Operation
 6Reinhard, it has a far stronger element of the
 7expropriation than of the liquidation, if I can put it
 8that way.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you because sometimes we seem to be
10proceeding without, as it were, starting with the general
11proposition. Do you accept that Operation Reinhard,
12whoever it was called after, did have an aspect to it
13which involved the wholesale killing of Jews by whatever
14means?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Operation Reinhard was a subsection of the Holocaust which
16was partly the deportation element, partly the killing
17element, whatever it happened, it had the for the SS the
18pleasant side effect, the large numbers of fountain pens,
19watches, gold, gold rings, jewellery and so on, came into
20their hands which were then processed in a ruthlessly
21methodical manner by the technicians of Operation
22Reinhard.
23     Now, in the way that these things happen, it may
24happen, it may have come about that people will then
25regard Operation Reinhard as being the whole rather than
26as being part of the whole, if I can put like that.

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