Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 187

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    This is a different grouping, if I may call it
 1Dr Korheir in March 1943.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the kind of statistical basis that would have been
 3provided to that statistician, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In that document he said that the Jews of the Warthegau,
 5I forget how many, 145,000 I think, had undergone
 6Sonderbehandlung, did he not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to answer that without seeing the document.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You remember, we discussed it this morning. You agreed
 9with me. The Korheir report that Himmler had edited?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but whether those specific ones -- I know the phrase
11Sonderbehandlung ... comes into the document but whether
12it is specifically the Warthegau Jews he is referring to.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He referred to 145,000 Warthegau Jews and some whatever
14million Polish Jews.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, if that is what the document says.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As far as I recall, it does. It is something like that.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was Chelmno a village like Sobibor?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I am as ill informed as your Lordship is on this. I am
20not an expert on these matter but I am prepared to blunder
21around in the darkness along with Mr Rampton.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I think Professor Van Pelt may have something to
23say about that if asked, and so would, no doubt, Professor
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The odd thing about it is that they are going
26West rather than East.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     That point obviously does stand out.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     If you are going to kill large numbers of people,
 3it does not matter how you do it or where you do it,
 4provided you do it with a degree of concealment or
 5discretion, does it, Mr Irving?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     You are absolutely right. But I repeat, of course, that
 7the conclusions you are drawing are not actually included
 8in the two documents you have so far put to us.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No it is a little piece of evidence along the way,
10Mr Irving.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     After 55 years we are entitled to more than just little
12bits of evidence, particularly now that the Polish
13archives and the Russian archives are open to us.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We go over this again and again and again, you see. I am
15not looking for a single document as you are, Mr Irving.
16I am looking at a jigsaw puzzle and I am trying to fit the
17pieces together. When I have done that, I look at the
18picture and I say, as an intelligent historian with an
19open mind, what does this tell me?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I think you are absolutely right. I do exactly the same
21exercise but I think I am applying possibly slightly
22stricter criteria, because one is always liable to be
23ambushed ten years down the road by a document which
24produces a completely different conclusion. The closer
25you adhere to the original documents, if you possibly can,
26the less likely you are to be ambushed. For example, when

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 1the entire Goebbels' diaries came out about 15/20 years
 2ago, I contacted the editors and I said is there any
 3document that proves me wrong because I am quite happy to
 4be proven wrong. That is exactly the kind of nightmare
 5that awaits you, that suddenly some new huge archive may
 6open up like the entire Auschwitz archive, as happened
 7quite recently, and the documents may be there to prove
 8that you made irresponsible conclusions.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But does the responsible historian take
10account also of the fact that we do know that quite a lot
11of what you might call the compromising documents were
12destroyed deliberately as the Russian army advanced
14 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, the entire Auschwitz archives were captured by
15the Russians, as we shall be hearing from the expert
16witnesses, which is a very substantial trove. It was not
17just any archives, it was the entire Auschwitz
18construction archives. The same happened in Mydonek when
19the Russians captured Mydonek.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Can we try to speed up a bit, Mr Irving, because
21this is uncontroversial. Have you still got that tabular
22sort of chronology summary document we gave you before the
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We put at the bottom of page 6 that Himmler had lunch with
26Hitler on 14th July. We took that from the Witte book.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You in your books say he saw him on 16th. It does not
 3probably matter, does it?.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It may well be that -- he was constantly in and out. It
 5may well be that I had a letter that Himmler wrote to
 6Berger, for example, in which he said, "Yesterday I had
 7lunch with the Fuhrer". This is the kind of source that
 8you would extract that information from. I have now
 9obtained access to all the private letters that Himmler
10wrote to his mistress where he describes this very trip to
11Auschwitz, that kind of material. You are constantly
12coming across new material.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At all events, either one day or three days after meeting
14Hitler, Himmler goes to Eastern Europe, he goes to
15Auschwitz first?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     He goes on quite a swing around the occupied territories.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On 19th he is in Lublin?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Eventually, I think, he winds up in Finland or somewhere
20like that, but never mind that. He goes to Auschwitz.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     We have, of course, the private shorthand diary of
22Himmler's personal assistant, Rudolph Brant, for this
23entire period, about a 300 page shorthand diary, which
24I had transcribed and to which you have made no reference
25in this, I see.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not know about it and I know not whether it has any

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 1relevance or significance?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It has been in my discovery and your instructing
 3solicitors have photocopied the entire document.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have no knowledge whether it has any significance or
 5relevance for this case.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It has negative significance in as much as it is
 7shorthand, it is kept by Himmler's personal assistant, and
 8yet it contains none of the kind of evidence that one
 9would have liked to have found.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now there is a document which I think we need to look at,
11which is having been to Auschwitz on 17th and 18th July
121942 -- if anybody wants to see it, there is a photograph
13of the visit in the Witte book.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Gerald Fleming also publishes it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We do not really need to look at it, do we?
16 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think you need to look at it, no,
17I agree.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it shows who went. Kamla was there, the man who
19built Auschwitz.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The architect, Bischoff, was there?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Bischoff was there. Presumably, Dejaco was also there --
22all the local notables. Mr Dejaco is D-E-J-A-C-O.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now Mr Irving will need file H3 (ii).
24 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, this is a document referred to on pages
2563 to 64 of, so I am told -- can I just -- you perhaps
26would like to have it open in front of you, page 63, my

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