Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 187

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I think probably not. If you look at item 218, Auszug
 2aus einem Lagebericht...
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but that comes from a totally different provenance,
 4according to the following page. It come from AIM,
 5Gestapo Lodsch.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How do you know what document it is that I am talking
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You are talking about document 217.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, 218.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you read the part of 218 that is printed on that
12page, and the first part down to the words " geschaffen
13worden ist" on the next page in German. I am certainly
14not going to do that.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     You wish me to read it out in German?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there not an English version? This is not
18a very happy way of doing it, is it? It is terribly
20 MR RAMPTON:     I have not got a translation of this particular
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not even in Longerich?
23 MR RAMPTON:     It is noted in Longerich, as you can see. The
24document is 9th June 1942.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not in your schedule, is it?
26 MR RAMPTON:     It is footnoted. It is not in my schedule, no.

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 1It is a document I found quite late.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there is no alternative, we will have to
 3do that way.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Right, I only want to ask one question really
 5about this. That is a report from the Gestapo in Lodsch
 6about movement of Jews, is it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. What it is saying is, we make space for Jews coming
 9-- I am paraphrasing -- in from the Outreich and the
10Ostmark by, I do not know whether the word is displacing,
11resettling, the Jews that are already in the ghetto at
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. This was always the policy. There would be a stage
14by stage ripple, shall we say.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does the last phrase in the fifth line and sixth
16lines of 247 mean? "... So das nunmehr fur zirka 55000
17Juden Platz im Ghetto geschaffen worden ist"?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     So that we have now generated enough space for about
1955,000 Jews in the ghetto.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That must mean that about 55,000 Jews more or less have
21been moved out somewhere?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, assuming that the ghetto had not been expanded at
23that time.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sure, but, if you look at the table above, which may
25indeed have a different source, it may have been
26translated from the Polish, I do not know, 217, do you see

.   P-112

 1the right hand column "Abgang"?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the subheading "Ausgesiedelt"?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which means settled, taken away?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The first of the two columns in the middle says nach
 8Kulmhof, does it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     To Chelmno, yes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the same as Chelmno, is it?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 MR RAMPTON:     That is Chelmno. If you total up the figures in
13that column, they come, I can tell you, to 54,990.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So that is where, using a reasonable degree of
16intelligence and interpretive wisdom, Mr Irving, those
1755,000 Jews in this Gestapo report have gone, is it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Effectively, from January to May.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right, in five months?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     In five months, yes. You are confronting me with these
21documents. I am seeing it for the first time. I think we
22are learning together. We are reading them together and
23I will accept that as an interpretation, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Are you prepared to say what you think might
25have happened to those 55,000 Jews that were sent to
26Chelmno in the first months of 1942?

.   P-113

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Not on the basis of just those two documents, no. I think
 2it would be highly irresponsible to do so. I am just
 3looking at where Chelmno is on the map.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know anything about what was at Chelmno?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     We know something about what was at Chelmno. There were
 6these gas trucks that were disposing of people at some
 7time during the war, but whether they were operating in
 8these five months, I do not know. I notice that Chelmno
 9is on the border to the East, and an equally plausible
10interpretation would be that they had been sent there as
11the first stepping stage to go somewhere East. I am not
12saying this is what happened.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Chelmno?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, Chelmno, you are quite mistaken. Chelmno is in
16the Warthegau. It is about 40 kilometres west-north-west
17of Lublin.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It is off this map?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is not on the map but I can tell you that it is on
20every map I have ever looked at. Chelmno is in the
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Of Lublin?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, Lodsch. Did I say Lublin?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It will not be on this map then.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought Chelmno was the same as Chelm.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought that is what I was told this
 4 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So Chelmno is not here at all.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Unless I can find it. I think this is Eastern
 7Poland. I think this is a general Government map. It is
 8not a map of the Warthegau at all. Your Lordship does
 9have some coloured maps.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do. I have found Chelmno on one of
12 MR RAMPTON:     You will find Chelmno, as I say, about 40
13kilometres West.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Whatever. The precise answer is that, on the basis of
15these two documents, we can say that that is on the
16balance of probabilities the identical 55,000 people.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I agree.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     But we cannot say on the basis of those two documents what
19happened to those.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Chelmno is in fact some distance West of
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but also West of Lodsch.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 MR RAMPTON:     This is a different grouping, if I may call it
25that, of Jews in some sense. These are the Jews of the
26Warthegau that no doubt form part of the figure given by

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