Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 187

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    Well, you do. It was in my discovery, and it should have
 1been put in the bundles rather than this printed version.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please do not let's get on to that again.
 3I was trying to explain yesterday that, by oversight or
 4whatever, I think you were away for quite a long time in
 5the autumn, there was no discussion about what documents
 6you wanted included in the bundles and that is the sole
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It is regrettable because we are robbed or deprived of
 9that possibility.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There we are. We have to make the best we
11can of what we have got.
12 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, if this is something which is troubling
13Mr Irving, which it obviously has been for some time, if
14he has any time in the three day weekend which is coming
15up, because we shall be going on to Auschwitz the week
16after, therefore there will not be much need to refer to
17this kind of document, he should make a list of those
18documents in his discovery, he will know very well which
19they are, which he would like us to copy as originals and
20put into these bundles.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure he will do it if he has the time.
22 MR RAMPTON:     That is what I mean.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, they were all copied for them originally. They
24have copies of the entire discovery.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point is to make a selection of the ones
26that you regard as being important. Anyway, we have this

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 1document, we have seen what it says, it has never really
 2been in doubt, but it is a start, you say, Mr Rampton.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Can we now turn, please, forward and also forward
 4in the bundle, to footnote 245. It is in the same file.
 5Again, I apologise profusely for the fact that I do not
 6think I have the original of it. Footnote, 1st May 1942,
 7tab 25 if it helps anybody find it.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are all these documents going to be in German
 9without a translation?
10 MR RAMPTON:     There is a translation of this one, my Lord. I am
11just looking for it, because it is annoying.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It just takes longer.
13 MR RAMPTON:     I did observe that I think Mr Irving said he did
14not want just to look at summaries of translations. He
15wanted to look, so far as he could, at the original
16document. I am respecting that until such time as your
17Lordship tells me to ignore it.
18     My Lord, there is a summary, in part a
19translation on page 53.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of what?
21 MR RAMPTON:     Of Dr Longerich's report, part 2, page 53,
22paragraph 1.3. Have you got that too, Mr Irving?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Very shortly, yes. Document September 18th, by the way,
24was on page 326 of Hitler's War translated in full.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     This one is presumably on page 330. The one we are

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 1looking at now is on page 330 of Hitler's War, the
 2original edition.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not suppose much of what I am going to put to you is
 4going to be controversial, save in point of
 5interpretation, not translation. There may be some things
 6you have not seen before, in which case then you must say
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I have seen this document.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Obviously you have. It would not be in the book,
10otherwise. It says, does it not, in effect this: Greiser
11is writing to Himmler, and he says that the "special
12treatment" -- the word is Sonderbehandlung -- "of about
13100,000 Jews in my district was authorized by you in
14agreement with Heydrich, and that it could be completed
15within the next two to three months"?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     "You" in this case is of course Himmler, not Hitler.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh sure.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I said it is a letter from Greiser to Himmler.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but it is an important point to make. It shows where
21this particular system link ends.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, you say that. That is assuming that Himmler never
23communicated any of this sort of stuff to Hitler.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am just drawing attention to what this actual document
25says, Mr Rampton.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I follow that.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The special treatment which you, Mr Himmler, and Heydrich
 2have both authorized.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we just leave Adolf Hitler out of this for the
 4moment? I am not actually on Adolf Hitler. I will have
 5to come back him, no doubt. I am dealing now with the
 6scale and systematic nature of this operation, whatever
 7this operation may turn out to be.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Here in May of 1942, following an order or whatever you
10like to call it from Hitler, that the OutReich and the
11Protectorate are to be cleared of their Jews, Himmler gets
12a letter from Greiser saying that he can clear out, no,
13specially handle, whatever that may mean, about 100,000
14Jews in his gaugebiet, which is the Warthegau, in the next
15two to three months.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, is that the first reference to
18sonderbehandlung that one finds in the documents?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, we have had it once or twice up to this point, I
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I mean chronologically?
22 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, that is a very good question, if I may
23say so. I do mean it is a good question because I do not
24know the answer.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     With this sinister meaning, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There may be something in Professor Browning, I do not

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 1know. This means killing, does it not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     In the light of what subsequently happened, yes, but it is
 3not evident from this particular document.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But not in gas chambers?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Not necessarily, no, not evident from this particular
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Where were the Jews of the Warthegau killed,
 8Mr Irving?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know, and I suspect that you cannot tell from
10this document either.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, but I know what went on at Chelmno, as indeed do you,
12do you not?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     We know that there was a killing operation started there,
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With the use of gas trucks?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     That is possible, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Well, let us look at another document in the same
18file. This is one you may not have seen before but, as
19I say, I am doing two things at once so, notwithstanding
20that you have not seen them before if you have not, could
21you look at footnote 247? It is just a couple of pages on
22from the one we looked at. This is a reprint from a book
23call Faschismus, I do not know who wrote it, which I am
24sure is German for "fascism". Have you seen this before?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not, no. It is a translation into German from the
26Polish, presumably.

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