Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 187

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    The second observation I would make, my Lord, is this.
 1total of the observation I wish to make.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     As to that last point, Mr Irving, jumping from
 4mountain peak to mountain peak may sometimes be
 5necessary. Sometimes one can do it because one knows what
 6is lying on the ground in between, and there is nothing
 7the matter with that, is there?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, from one's general expertise.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, the general array of evidence. Mr Irving, never
10mind that for the moment. It is the fact, is it not,
11perhaps I am wrong but I do not think so, I think you said
12it several times in this court, what I might call the
13residue of German wartime documents that we have got,
14whether from the bottom fighting units, police units or
15whatever, right up to the top, is fragmentary?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I would say on the contrary, it is there in embarrassing
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have everything, have we?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     There is such a volume of documentation that in the United
20States they still have not finished cataloguing it. They
21are still working on it and usually the Germans create
22multiple copies of the documents that they are dealing
23with. So, if they had destroyed in one place, they would
24exist in another.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, unless a document has been deliberately destroyed,
26which it might well have been, one could expect to find it

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 1somewhere at some stage in the future near or far? Is
 2that right?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have expected to have found it in the past,
 4frankly, at least one copy of it.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, the possibility remains that there are certain kinds
 6of documents which certain kinds of people at certain
 7times in history will set out deliberately to destroy?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I think this is a useful discussion. Yes, I think that
 9with certain kind of documents one would have expected
10people to attach priority to their destruction but, even
11if that is the case, there will always be somebody
12slightly lower down in that chain of hierarchy between the
13person who gives the orders and the person who executes
14them who has felt a qualm of conscience or a pang of
15conscience, and who has written to his wife, saying we
16have to carry out orders that are too ghastly even to
17think of, and I found documents just like that, too.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You found a letter that the officer Dr Otto Schutz Duval
19wrote to his wife, did you not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I did not find that, no.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did not, but that is such an example, is it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I am afraid I am not familiar with that document unless
23you remind me of it.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You refer to it on your web site.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Somebody else found it, obviously posted it and put it on
26the web site. I am talking about around Hitler's level

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 1there with generals who wrote letters of precisely that
 2content, saying they are doing things in Poland that I do
 3not even like to tell you about.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That process, what one might call the workings of
 5conscience or anything else, might account for what you
 6have called the occasional orphan document, might it not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes indeed, but also there could be an uglier process,
 8namely a document created like the identity card of Mr
 9Ivan Demjanjuk, which turns out to have been generated by
10the KGB for whatever purpose. We have to be constantly on
11the look out, particularly for documents coming from
12Russian or KGB archives. It is a remote possibility, but
13we have to be alert to that possibility.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Of course that is absolutely right. Can we start
15please -- I know you will think or may think initially
16that this is somewhat anachronistic out of our chronology
17but it is not really as you will see in a moment -- a
18document which I am sure you are familiar with. My Lord,
19it is in bundle H4 (v).
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid that is one I do not have here.
21 MR RAMPTON:     We seem to have quite a lot of spares here.
22Footnote 187. These are Dr Longerich's documents?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I think I am the first person to have quoted this
24document in fact ever.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Again, I am afraid it is a document which is sideways in
26the file. This is a reprint of the original. It is very

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 1short. It is document No. 54 at the top of page 157 on
 2the right-hand side: "Schreiben Himmlers an den Gauleiter
 3im Wartheland Geiser: Ankundigung von Judentransporten
 4aus dem Reich nach Lodz, 18.9.1941", which means, being
 5translated, Mr Irving?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Which sentence are you reading?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I read the heading at 54?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Letter from Himmler to Gauleiter in the Wartheland
 9Greiser, forewarning of the arrival of Jewish transports
10from the Reich in Lodz or Lodsch in Litzmannstatt, as the
11Germans call it, on September 18th, 1941.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will not read the German. Does it say: The Fuhrer
13wishes that, as quickly as possible, the Altreich and the
14Protectorate, that Bohemia and Moravia, is it not, shall
15be cleared and free of Jews from West to East?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you accept that as evidence of, I do not know what the
18word is but it does not matter, something that Hitler has
19told Himmler he wants done?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, Hitler has taken the initiative and has ordered the
21emptying out.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Which is made quite plain in all my books also, of course.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If mere deportation from central and Western Europe is
25Hitler's idea of a losung, maybe even an endlosung, until
26Madagascar is free, this is the date at which it takes

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Not precisely on this date. It would have been any date
 3up to this date.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From this date?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It takes effect from this date.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From this date. Well, can we then leap forward in time
 7please, in this file?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I just express a certain amount of dismay that we are
 9having printed versions of these telegrams shown us to and
10not the originals? The reason for that is that the
11originals have certain paraphernalia attached to them,
12which are not without significance. I am referring
13specifically to their security classification, because
14I intend later on to draw conclusions from documents which
15have security classifications and documents which do not,
16what you call janitorial level, or what I call janitorial
17level documents, and we do not know what classification
18this document has. That does help us -- I am sorry to
19speak so quickly -- to classify in the other sense a
20document into its degree of importance, whether it has the
21very highest security grading or no security
22classification. We cannot tell from this of course
23because the editor has taken it off.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I fear Mr Irving, I am naked in this regard. I have no
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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