Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 207

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    And I know that some people would say, well, the Jews
 1atrocity on the Eastern Front which I have never denied.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Well, then please will you look at report No. 51
 3itself? I know we have looked at it before, but these
 4documents are, in our submission, so intimately connected
 5that it is necessary to look at it again. You will find
 6that in (which I hope you have) H3(i) which is the first
 7tranche of Professor Browning's documents at footnote
 828(ii). H3(i), do you have?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then if you turn to FN 28(ii) at the bottom right-hand
11corner of the page, you should have it?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is a report -- I will not go through it all again --
14only for a part of the East. It does not say anything,
15for example, about Ostland. It talks about South Russia,
16Ukraine and the Bialystok area which is to the west of
17White Russia, is it not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As we noticed before, under paragraph 2, listed as gang
20helpers, and what was the other word?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     "Partisan accomplices" is the way I would translate that.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, what?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     "Accused of being partisan accomplices or fellow
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, fellow travellers?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     And suspects.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Or whatever. Some were arrested, some were executed,
 2which is perhaps not very surprising, not in huge numbers,
 3a total under B of 14,000 -- well, comparatively not in
 4huge numbers, I should have said. Under C, as a separate
 5entry for heaven knows why, a separate entry, 363,211
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, is it your thesis that Hitler would have been likely
 9to think, "Oh, well, I am sure all those Jews were getting
10up to no good in the underground or the Resistance or
11whatever, the subversives, and there were all that many of
12them so the poor old SS had to shoot them", is that a
13realistic scenario, Mr Irving?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     That being sarcastic, presumably?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am being entirely sarcastic.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, of course not.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not to you, but I mean that is not a credible suggestion,
18is it?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Of course it is not, no, and this document I have printed
20in several of my books. I think I was probably the very
21first person to have drawn attention to it. I may be
22wrong on that.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is important, Mr Irving. So you agree with me that
24this is just some kind of fiction, really, to put them
25under band helpers and band whatever the other things,
26accomplices. This is put, coldly and bluntly, a record of

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 1the number of Jews deliberately executed for the reason
 2that they are Jews and for another, is it not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I have no evidence of that, but that is a reasonable
 4supposition. But I would also continue from that point
 5and say what worries me about this document is that we
 6have no evidence that Hitler took it on board, as we would
 7now say. He never referred in later conferences saying,
 8"I remember back in December we got that document saying
 9we had killed 3,000 Jews, jolly good show!"
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you have had this document for a long time?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But the evidence suggests that it was laid
13before Hitler, does it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree, my Lord, but there is a difference between
15documents being laid before a Prime Minister or a Head of
16State at a time when disaster, the world is crashing
17around his ears, it is the height of the Stalingrad
18Crisis, and the fact that he actually imbibed the facts
19and figures contained in it, this may be precisely why
20Himmler put it to him at that time. This has been known
21to happen, that people -- documents are shovelled in front
22of them.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     We now know that he did ask to be kept informed about the
24shootings on the Eastern front.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     18 months earlier, my Lord, yes -- that is not strictly
26accurate, my Lord. He asked to be kept informed of the

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 1activities of the Einsatzgruppen. Broadly speaking, their
 2major activity was policing the rear areas and to them
 3fell the task of killing the Jews.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Have you any idea of the cost of ammunition at
 5that time in the history of the Reich?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Cost of ammunition?
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I would imagine the price per round was relatively low.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it would not be a huge economic expenditure to kill,
10let us say, 700,000 Jews by shooting?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It is much cheaper to kill them with bullets than with
12cyanide gas.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Much noisier too?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I take your word for it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, bullets, they were not using silencers, were they?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I am afraid you have lost me there.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is more likely to come to public attention, is it not,
18and it is also, I mean, I do not know how many soldiers
19they used by per shooting?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I think there were six machine gunners, according to
21Bruns, was it not?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Who took it in turns. They were relieved.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Evidently, at some stage it became too much for many of
25the people that had to do it?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I am sure.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whereas -- we will come to the other matters later on.
 2Now, I would like Mr Irving -- my Lord, this is the last
 3thing, if I may, that I will do before the
 4adjournment ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     --- to have a copy of Professor Evans' report.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     While it is being fetched, my Lord, can I ask you, do you
 8read the newspaper accounts that are published at all of
 9this action?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not much, no.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Not much?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, if you have been there, there is not much point in
13reading about it.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree, but the newspapers sometimes report things that
15have not been dealt with in the courtroom.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I know. Why do you mention that at this stage?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, over the weekend I have been studying some of the
18accounts, and it would disturb me if I thought you were
19accepting what the press reported about things.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I rely on what I hear here.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the Evans report.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Page?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That will probably take us up to, at any rate, 5 to 1.
25Page 134. There may be more to come of this after the
26adjournment when I have done a bit more research, but

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