Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 207

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- no, Mr Irving, sometimes -- I know it is tiring to
 2concentrate hard all the time, I know that, sometimes
 3I think you just do not hear what I say. I am talking
 4about the killings in the East. Leave the German Jews out
 5of it for a moment, because at the beginning they were in
 6tiny minority anyway.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     But my reference to the wild minority carrying on was a
 8reference to German Jews.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. You, I think, have asserted -- if I am wrong then
10I say after the adjournment we will do a paper chase to
11see whether I am wrong, if you say I am wrong -- you have
12asserted on a number of occasions, have you not, that this
13sort of thing, like what happened in Kovno, like the sort
14of thing we have seen in that Minsk document, were not
15part of policy, they were just things that happened. You
16said just now about those Berlin Jews, they got to the end
17of line, that was that and after that they were in hand of
18the wicked witch?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     The system operated from Berlin out to the East. I think
20we have conceded this, so far as there was a system. But
21I think that what you failed to establish, if I may say
22so, is to establish that the system operated from Berlin
23outwards to Hitler headquarters as well, and that I should
24have known about and I ignored it.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Do I have now a clear concession that what the SS
26were doing in the East, whether they were Polish, Russian

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 1or Berlin Jews, no, leave the Berlin Jews out of it for
 2the moment; what the SS were doing in the East to the
 3Russian Jews, and the Baltic Jews, to a total of perhaps
 41.5 million, I do not believe the numbers matter, we have
 5a concession now, do we, that that was done on the
 6authority of and with the knowledge of at least Heydrich
 7in Berlin?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, quite clearly.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The buck stopped there, did it, did it go to
10Himmler as well?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I think quite clearly this August 1941 message to which
12Mr Rampton probably wants to proceed next is a reference
13to the overall security activity of Einsatzgruppen in the
14East, on which Hitler wished to be kept informed, and to
15try and say this obviously refers to specifically to the
16killing of Jews and only to the killing of Jews is a very
17adventurous leap to make. Obviously you have to mention
18this desire of Hitler to be kept informed, but it is
19dangerous then therefore to say therefore he must also
20have been told in great detail about everything else that
21is going on.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I am trying to take it slowly, Mr Irving, because
23I want to be sure of the bricks which I am building.
24I have built brick No. One, at long last I have a
25concession that Heydrich authorized and knew about
26shootings of these hundreds of thousand of Jews in the

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Which Jews are we talking about? Can we be quite
 3specific. We are talking about the eastern non-German
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     We are talking about the ones the
 7Einsatzgruppen --
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is not a concession because I said it all along.
 9I think the word "concession" is loaded. It implies
10I said something differently previously.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- that is what I will look for over the adjournment
12because I believe that you have on numbers of occasions,
13not in this court, said almost exactly that.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall await this revelation with interest.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I may be wrong, if I am wrong I will tell you so.
16     Now I am going to go a stage up from Heydrich.
17I am going to go to Himmler next. This is a document
18which I perfectly well accept you did not have at the time
19when you wrote your books. My Lord, it is Himmler's note
20of the 18th December 1941. It is referred to on page 63
21of the first part of Dr Longerich's report, and the
22document itself in one of several versions is at footnote
23160 of H4(ii).
24 A. [Mr Irving]     While we are looking for that, can I just say this is
25precisely the kind of document, of course, that falls
26under my strictures about is it strictly relevant to the

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 1issues as pleaded? If it was not available to me at the
 2time I wrote the books ...
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have been wondering about that and I
 4think ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     It is of historical interest and I am quite happy to...
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but just wait a minute, Mr Irving. I think there is
 7a lot of force in what you say, but I do not think I can
 8stop Mr Rampton cross-examining about it because if he
 9were, for example, able to show by producing a document
10you did not know about when you were writing, that it
11points unequivocally in whatever direction, and you were
12to deny it, he might be entitled to say to me at the end
13of the case, well, that shows that you are not objective
14when you are shown a new document.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     He is a hard, cold denier, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But I do accept the force of what you say and Mr Rampton
17may takes these documents perhaps rather than shorter than
18the ones that were available.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is very easy to do that because there
20is really only one question comes out of it. The trouble
21is I cannot find it.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I have, of course, used the document in the new version of
23the book that has now gone to press.
24 MR RAMPTON:     It is about three quarters of the way through file
254(ii). Has Mr Irving got file 4(ii)?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I am very familiar with what the document says and its

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 1shape. "Juden frager"...
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I am not, Mr Rampton, so can you show me
 3where I go for it?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, my Lord, footnote 160. This reproduction of
 5the note is the best I have. It comes from that little
 6book, Witte. It is a Himmler manuscript, my Lord. Your
 7Lordship may recognize the handwriting.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Before we look at the substance of this,
10Mr Irving, perhaps it is best to say what it says. We had
11better just tell everybody what it means. I hope I read
12it correctly. It is headed: "Fuhrer Hauptquartier", is
13it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is the "Fuhrer's headquarters". Underneath that we
16know which headquarters because Himmler tells us, the
17Wolfsschanze, the Wolf's Lair.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did you say FN 160?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, 160.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mine is 17th December 1941.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but on the right-hand side it should be the
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had assumed that was what was being
24transcribed on the left-hand side.
25 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not, I am afraid. In fact, in the book
26the transcription is on the next following page behind the

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