Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 207

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    I know that, but Mr Irving, my Lord, supposes that
 1this evidence is useless, or at any rate not much use
 2without a Hitler order on a piece of paper.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not what I said.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Double standards, Mr Irving.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I said I would expect to find in a document of this kind,
 6where you have people discussing crimes of this magnitude,
 7that one person would have said, would have made reference
 8to ... Fuhrer liquidierung or something like that, just so
 9that everyone at the meeting is covered. What the
10cowardly call a (German spoken), a piece of paper that
11covers them if things go nasty. And they do not bother to
12do it.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This puzzles me, you have used this argument in relation
14to some of the entries in the Goebbels' diaries, you have
15used it in relation to entries occurring, for example,
1627th March 1942, that in some sense Goebbels, by referring
17to Hitler for the more excessive anti-Semitic sentiments
18appearing in those diaries, as some kind of alibi; why in
19March 1942 or here we are in January 1942, should anybody
20think that they needed an alibi for what they were doing?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Because the war is going very badly at this moment for
22Germany. All sort nasty things can happen. People here
23on the Eastern Front can see the writing on the wall.
24They lost half the German army to frostbite.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Stalingrad is not until the next year, is it?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     The winter of 1941/42 42 was touch and go for Germany

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 1already. Thinking people if they had any brains would
 2start covering their tracks.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     These are just run of the mill janitorial level, to use
 4your attractive phrase, janitorial level routine military
 5reports back to headquarters in Berlin, we are doing as we
 6are told, here is the number of Jews that we have killed,
 7this is why we do not do it any more in the East land, the
 8reason is we have done it already, does not need doing, we
 9cannot do much in Minsk at the moment because the ground
10is too hard, but it goes on, does it not --
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I correct one point you said, you said this was a
12report back to Berlin.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is not right, Mr Rampton?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     -- minute of a meeting somewhere in East.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why this document to me does not seem
16to carry the issue very much further in terms of whether
17it was authorised at the highest level.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Except for this, Mr Irving, if this was
19unauthorized, unsystematic, contrary to orders, it would
20not be reported at all, would it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     If the calling was unauthorized -- I am afraid you escaped
22my attention there for a moment, my mind wondered.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry. I will repeat it. I will put it in different
24way. when, what was his name Lieutenant Kalley?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     K-A-L-L-E-Y.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He did what at Mi Li, this is a parable you used yourself,

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 1so you know what I am talking about.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     In a climate of barbarism he took revenge on a village and
 3wiped out every man, women and child.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did he or his adjutant or his NCO sit down and write a
 5laborious, typewritten report about it?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I think there were documents, there was a paper trail
 7established at the court martial.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Was there a written report signed by Kalley, "this is what
 9I have done", and no reports of such atrocities sent back
10from Vietnam to Washington on a regular basis?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, neither you nor I am is an expert on the
12Vietnam war and it would be wrong for me to speculate.
13Can I just point out, my Lord, even if this document had
14established the kind of evidence Mr Rampton is looking
15for, I would submit it could not be held against me
16because it is only recently submerged from the Moscow
17archives. It could not have been on my desk at the time
18I wrote my books. I could not have manipulated,
19mistranslated or distorted it.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You would have known, this document serves three purposes;
21one it shows it was happening, but we all know that
22anyway, we do not need this document for that, the other
23is that somebody thought worth writing about it in a
24formal written note of a protocol for a meeting. And the
25other is it gives two very good reasons why there might
26have been a lull in the Eastern shootings --

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Because the ground was frozen.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- yes, and in the Ostlands the job had already been done?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate that.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said you did not know about that document, it has only
 5recently come out in Moscow. I am in no position to
 6dispute that. Have you been aware of the EMs, I say that
 7to avoid my awful German; have I got it more or less
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, commendably so.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much. They do go back to Berlin, or rather
11they are composed in Berlin from information sent from the
12East by the Einsatzgruppen; have you been aware of those
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I am aware of their existence, yes, I have not studied
15them in detail.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Have you been aware of those reports, was my
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Since when?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Certainly since the beginning of this case. Over the last
21three to five years I would say I have become familiar
22with them.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have they all come out of Moscow as well?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     They have come out in dribs and drabs. Some turned up in
25the Nuremberg trial, some of them turned up subsequently.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If they were in the Nuremberg files they were sitting

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 1there where they could be looked I assume, I do not know
 2where the Nuremberg files are?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     How big they are? A lifetime task.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you see, Mr Irving, if you are looking for evidence
 5both ways, what was known in Berlin about what was going
 6on in the East, and before launching yourself into an
 7assertion that these were their unauthorized crimes of
 8some wicked people in the East, you ought to be looking at
 9things like that if they exist, ought you not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I did indirectly, if you remember I offered a major reward
11for anybody who could find the kind of evidence. If it is
12provided, the kind of evidence I am sure people would
13stepped forward with outstretched hand --
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think, Mr Irving, you are shortly going to try his
15Lordship's patience if you are not careful.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     -- that was a short and perhaps cheap answer.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was not an answer to my question. If you assert that
18these killings were the unauthorized criminal acts of
19certain wild SS cowboys in the East, then you ought to be
20looking for evidence both ways before you make that
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Which killings are we taking about, the killings of German
23Jews, or killings of the rest, if I may put it that way?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will have to do the paper chase after lunch. --
25 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a very significant distinction, I think, in the
26statement I made that the killings stopped.

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