Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 207

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    Here it is a sentence, effectively, saying the protocol on
 1the sequence of events in the meeting of the main
 2department and department heads on January 29th 1942. It
 3is not the same thing at all. It is not a letter head.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is actually short for "an dien", is it
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, thank you very much, my Lord, yes, indeed. But in a
 7letter, the formalities -- I would be very surprised if
 8anyone would disagree with me with that. Although I have
 9to say one or two Auschwitz documents also say "um" for
10letter heads.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have not been able to find in the brief scan
12I have just given it the actual German quoted by Professor
13Browning; that is not to say it is not there; simply
14I have just not picked it up at once. Maybe the best way
15of dealing with it is to look at the German Professor
16Browning cites. Could Mr Irving have Professor Browning's
17report, please.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     What page of report?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is page 16. Mr Julius -- yes, that is interesting
20while we are trying to find the actual text, Mr Irving, on
21the first page, at the bottom of the page, the last
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I see that.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see that. You have seen what you might call the
25"anomalous SS"?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How odd, one in Minsk and the other one in Kovno?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The same illiterate chap with the same rotten typewriter
 4going round from one place to another?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The passage you are looking for is at page
 61382 at the bottom.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I am grateful to your Lordship. It is the third
 8sentence of the last paragraph on page 1382. That is
 9using the stamp on page 3 of the document.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It says, something like this, does it not, a complete
12liquidation of the Jews is not possible due to frost; and
13the word which is used for "liquidation" is "liquduren" is
14it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Absolutely specifically. They do not use "vernichtung"
16or ----
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because the ground is too frozen to dig pits, which would
18then be available as mass graves for the Jews. Not much
19doubt what they are talking about there, is there?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     None at all.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are in January in Minsk, which is in the Ukraine, yes?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who are the people who are coming to that
24conclusion? I do not quite know what the document
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It appears to be a session of local department heads and

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 1their subordinates on the spot out there rather than in
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, my Lord, Professor Browning tells us that it
 5is written by somebody called SS Sturmlandfuhrer Hoffman
 6of the Security Service in Minsk and that he explained
 7this to a meeting to officials --
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not see how signature on page 6 can be made to be
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- it may be like you, Mr Irving, Professor Browning has a
11considerable knowledge of this period and this aspect of
12this period.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     We shall see.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because he knows from extraneous evidence that it is
15Hoffman who says this.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Is there any reference to Adolf Hitler in this document?
17To the originator of this system, as you call it?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, can I say at once I hope I do not have to
19invoke help from his Lordship, you will get a chance to
20make your clever speech at the end of this case, I do not
21answer questions.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It was not a clever speech it, was just an observation.
23This is a sample of the quality of documents which are now
24available to historians which go into the most intimate
25detail about the killing operations going on.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is not why I am looking at it at all.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I look at it as a Hitler historian. I try to find anybody
 2saying, it is OK, fellows, the Fuhrer has ordered this.
 3We are covered.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, that is a very literal minded way of looking at
 5things if I may say so.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     A very safe way of looking at things, being literal.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very literal. If you do not have a Hitler order "shoot
 8all the Jews in the East" signed Adolf Hitler, then you
 9have to look at the circumstantial evidence.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     This is evidence of shooting was going on, which I have
11never denied.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     As a lawyer would, to see what evidence there is which
13might suggest that this was a centrally organized and
14approved operation. That is stage one. If you get that
15far, and then you see a report telling Hitler that 363,000
16Jews have been caught, have been shot by these people, and
17put two and two together, and you make four, not five, or
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a poor substitute for the real thing, and it is the
20real thing that I have been would have been looking for.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We do not have the real thing, but what is your task as an
22historian, Mr Irving? It is, is it not to give an
23objective, fair, interpretation to the cumulative effect
24of all the evidence, is it not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     It is surely not suggested that I have concealed any of
26that evidence in my book? The evidence is there for

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 1people to read.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know. You see you will not draw the obvious conclusions
 3from the evidence before you, simply because you have not
 4got a piece of paper signed by Adolf Hitler saying, "Do
 5it". Where on the other hand you have a piece of paper
 6which says simply "from Himmler"; it has not got Hitler's
 7name on it either, which simply says to Heydrich "do not
 8shoot these Berlin Jews, this train load of Berlin Jews",
 9immediately that becomes incontrovertible evidence that
10Hitler gave the order. Do you say anything about double
11standards in that?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     At least there is good quality evidence you advance in the
13opposite direction and I give both kinds of evidence in my
14books and I allow my readers to draw their own
15conclusions. My readers are not stupid, they are capable
16of drawing their own conclusions from what I write.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not only did that Himmler phonelog become evidence of an
18order from Hitler that those Jews should not be killed,
19but it became incontrovertible evidence that Hitler had
20made an order that no Jews anywhere were to be killed, did
21it not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I think we are testing the patience of the court if you go
23over this old ground all over again, Mr Rampton.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, not at all.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we did go over it.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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