Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 207

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not a stray document?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I referred to in my books. I have given the
 4figures. I have stated the facts and I said it was shown
 5to Hitler. I have not concealed these documents. I am
 6the first person to have found them, and immediately
 7brought them to the attention of the world.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why then do you turn your face so firmly against any
 9possibility that Hitler was at the heart or the root or
10the origin of this exercise?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, the distinction may be a bit too subtle, but
12I am not saying that, what I am saying is there is no
13evidence that he was. Possibly we are on the same side,
14but I am saying that there is a total shortage of evidence
15that Hitler was being informed of what was going on in
16these mass shootings and that when he did know he took
17steps to stop it, and that there is this one instance of a
18document going from Himmler to Hitler which obviously has
19to be brought to the attention of my readers, which I do.
20But otherwise there is very little evidence to support any
21contention such as are you trying to make out.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the Muller document, which I understand
23you did not know about because it had not emerged does now
24provide some support for the ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Indeed, I put it in the latest edition of the book, my
26Lord, because it is clearly a relevant document for people

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 1to know about. I think so far before the December 1942
 2document it would be adventurous to try and draw a causal
 3link between them.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     There is no evidence at all that these mass
 5shootings of Jews generally did stop, is there, on account
 6of any order from anybody?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Mass shootings of German Jews stopped for several months.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That, as I said the other day, is common ground between
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Then they gradually picked up again because of the general
11criminality of the officers on the Eastern Front who had
12these victims in their charge.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But you are now talking about non-German Jews
14or Jews who are not German?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think there was any pause in the killing of
16non-German Jews. I think they were quite happy to get rid
17of them.
18 MR RAMPTON:     As a matter of fact there was. Again this was
19something which I do not know whether you have seen it
20before or not, I can tell you in a moment where it came
21from. Have you got H3(i) there still?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Page?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you turn to footnote 50. It is about halfway
24through the file.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     To what, Mr Rampton.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Footnote 50, FN 50. It merely reflects the

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 1footnote in Professor Browning's report. This is one of
 2these -- I think it is one of these (German spoken) that
 3he tells us that it is. No. 10 for February 1942. No
 4I have given it the wrong name. If you look at its first
 5page, this is a reprint.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which he translates, and no doubt correctly, as activity
 8and situation of the Einsatzgruppen of the security police
 9and the SD in the USSR; do you see that at the bottom of
10left hand column, Mr Irving?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. If you turn over the page, the right hand column,
13halfway down the page, at letter C, you see a separate
14entry; "Juden"?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you please, it says: "Nacht... Juden as... kind";
17tell me what that means.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     After in the Baltic provinces the Jewish question can be
19regarded as virtually solved and dealt with.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     The clarification of this problem, the solution of this
22problem in the remaining occupied territories of the east
23is continuing, making further steps; do you wish me to
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, there is no need for that. That is Heydrich reporting
26that in the Ostland, that is --

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, we do not know that because I have only two pages of
 2this report but. You are saying it is a report by
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- I do not know, it may not be. That is what Professor
 5Browning tells us. It may be something else, in fact. He
 6says on page 16 of this report in early 1942 Heydrich
 7reported -- you can take it up with him if you do not
 8accept it is Heydrich.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I just do not have the complete document, so I cannot
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That means, does it not, in effect this, no need to shoot
12any more of the Jews in Ostland because they would all
13have gone, nearly all gone?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not say that. It just --
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what it means.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     -- the problem has gone away --
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I know, look at it as an historian as opposed to a
18literary critic; that is what it means.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     -- I read out what it meant. I gave you the literal
20translation of it.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not asking for a translation, the input, significance
22of what you read out is that there is no need to do any
23more mass shootings in the Ostland because they have all
24been killed?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     This conclusion can be drawn from it, yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Ostland" there is referring to what?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Baltic provinces, three Baltic states.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship will see the problem in other
 3Einsatzgruppen areas in a moment.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because the East is sometimes a reference to
 5the front with Russia, is it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well --
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, the Ostland is specifically though I think,
 8am I right?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a reference to Baltic provinces.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The Baltic States.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Sometimes "the East" is also a euphemism for something
12uglier, too as I point out in my books.
13 MR RAMPTON:     The very next document, Mr Irving, says Professor
14Browning, is a protocol, it is a German word, my Lord, it
15is FN 51, just the next document after the divider,
16I hope.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
18 MR RAMPTON:     The protocol, it is very difficult to read. Of a
19meeting held, I think, in Minsk on 29th January. You see
20somebody has also written "um" 29th January, do you see
21that Mr Irving?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but it is not a date, the formality for writing a
23date like "London" and December 1st 1941, in German you
24would always have "dien".
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does it mean here?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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