Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 207

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    No. The instructions were to build camps for them. They
 1when you have got a military disaster looming.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am afraid, Mr Irving, I cannot possibly accept that the
 3planners in Berlin had any such idea in their head by late
 41941 whatsoever.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you and I operate from different criteria.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you go on, Mr Rampton, can I just ask
 7this? My impression is -- I may be completely wrong about
 8this -- that these reports from the Einsatzgruppen
 9continued to come in after the 1st December 1941.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes. There is the famous one of December 1942 that we
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The invasion of Russia.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is Russian Jews being liquidated.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Going back to Berlin?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     They are going back to Berlin and Hitler is in East
16Prussia. I have to keep on reminding the court of this.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     We are not so much concerned so much with Hitler at the
18moment, but Berlin. Berlin must have known that the
19shootings were continuing on, as you would accept, a
20massive scale?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I accept this my Lord, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     To that extent, would you accept it is systematic, or
23would you say not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I think to the extent that Mely was systematic, the
25Vietnamese war was systematic, and these things happen.
26They are subsequently covered up by the people in charge.

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 1But it is very difficult to make definitive statements in
 2the absence of any evidence one way or the
 3other. I prefer just to leave the facts to speak for
 4themselves, rather than try and fill in the gaps and join
 5the dots.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Look at the bottom of this document, Mr Irving.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just above the handwritten "FN8", you will see Jaeger's
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of executions carried out, 137,346?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From all over the Einsatz commander 3 area, whichever that
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But it included Kovno and Vilner amongst its places.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you gone done the figures on this report?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     No, but I will walk through them with you if you wish.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, it is going to be easier, of course you will have
22time to check whether I am right or not, of 137,000
23roughly speaking, people executed, about 98.5 per cent are
24identified as having been Jews; men, women and children?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And this report goes back to Berlin?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What happens to Herr Jaeger, whatever his rank might have
 3been? Was he sacked?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     That I do not know.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Imprisoned?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     That I do not know.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Court martialled?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Nothing happened to Jeckeln either, who was told by the
 9chief of the SS he had overstepped guidelines. I would
10have thought that was about as serious a reprimand as you
11can get.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is completely at random, really, because one can take
13any number of examples; the massacre of 33,000 Jews in one
14go, Jews from Kiev in two days 29th and 30th September
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you wish to lead evidence on that?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I want to know if you know about it.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     You wanted to?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want to know if you know about it.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     About Babiyar (?)
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1941, yes.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know in detail about it. I do not know any
23forensic detail about it. I know what the perception is.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is contained in one of these Heydrich --
25 A. [Mr Irving]     If you say so.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not these things jump out at you, Mr Irving? This vast

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 1number of recorded deaths is being shipped back
 2laboriously, and carefully typewritten reports by the
 3murderers to the head of the security service, call it
 4what you like?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I accept that, but this is of great interest to a
 6Holocaust historian, but not to an Hitler historian, if
 7you appreciate the difference.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not think there is a difference, Mr Irving. There is
 9two reasons, at least, why I -- or more than two but the
10two will do for the present without going the documents
11out. The first is that letter from Muller to the
12Einsatzgruppen at the beginning of August 1941, which I am
13sure you are familiar with?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I think the Fuhrer takes an interest in ----
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am saying the Fuhrer will be getting continuous
16reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     The Fuhrer has asked to be given.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Or whatever, the Fuhrer has asked to be given continuous
19reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Can you remind us when this letter came into the public
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, please do not keep changing the subject.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, this is important, because I am accused of
24manipulating documents before me when I wrote my books,
25this letter has only recently come to the attention of

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say, you do accept it as evidence of system, I think
 2this is the effect of your answer, going as far up the
 3tree as Heydrich, but not as far as Hitler?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     There is now evidence from that document that Hitler asked
 5to be kept informed of the activities of the
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I cannot tell you myself when that document first came
 8into the public domain. I will find out. --
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I can tell you from my knowledge, it came when the
10Moscow archives debouched what they had and historians
11started going through them.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- you are, however, fully familiar with what we shall
13certainly propose is one of the progeny of that order,
14that Hitler should see what the Einsatzgruppen were doing,
15at least, which is report No. 51 signed by Heydrich
16Himmler on September 1941?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not accept there is a direct connection between that
18stray document of August 1941 and the December 1942 stray
19document, which is one of a long series of reports by
20Himmler to Hitler on interesting things.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not a stray document in any sense at all. It is a
22sheet that actually went straight into the pen. It was
23destined for Hitler, and as you accepted -- I cannot
24remember which day -- Hitler probably saw it.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     December 29th.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.

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